Just for fun I started counting the strokes in Ashley's program on site. She has more than 50 strokes in her routine whilst I only counted 22 in Elena's program. Since I was live at the rink it might be +/- a few strokes. So I back your opinion. Even though Ashley is selling her program very well and has a strong presence on the ice her transitions are relatively weak.
2014-2015 GPF Ladies Free Skate 12/13
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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Just for fun I started counting the strokes in Ashley's program on site. She has more than 50 strokes in her routine whilst I only counted 22 in Elena's program. Since I was live at the rink it might be +/- a few strokes. So I back your opinion. Even though Ashley is selling her program very well and has a strong presence on the ice her transitions are relatively weak.
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- Feb 14, 2013
+1, any sentence involving the idea of someone having better jump technique than Liza is already in need of help. Note I said someone, not just the ladies, men too. Liza's only flaw is a slight hesitation going into the flip and that's literally the only flaw in her technique I can think of. No lady on the planet has better jump technique than her right now that I can think of. Wakaba's jumps are amazing and in terms of quality they were the second best in the ladies field, both Junior and Senior. This does not mean her jumps will last, you never know, and nit-picking everyone's jump technique does not make you an expert, it just means you're very focused on one area of skating, it's very important but it's not the be all and end all. I'd advice against evaluating any skater by jump technique alone.
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- Feb 26, 2014
I got the same impression when I saw her at TEB. I thought her ice coverage was weak as well, especially in her SP, compared with Yulia and Elena.
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- Apr 16, 2006
It's not bias. I honestly think Wakaba's technique is really good. I said it is not worse than (or, alternatively 'on par with') Liza's.
Oh, and if this helps, I am actually 100% Russian.
But, I judge things based on their actual quality and not on nationality. So please stop playing the 'grudge' card with me.
Thanks yyyskate, for seeing that I was solely talking about the technique and that if the skater wants to improve the technique, they have to first admit that it is flawed. It's for their own sake.
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- Sep 10, 2012
Well, I actually agree with Miss Ice, and I will go further: for Wakaba's technique is the best among all the girls currently competing. Liza's jumps are beautiful, but they're not as clean and stable as Higuchi's...
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- Sep 17, 2011
You don't watch that much? Then that means you can't possibly have seen enough to make a real conclusion and you have no basis for judgement, doesn't it?"I love how people call Julia's jump technique 'non-conventional'. Can we just be honest and say it's bad?"
this is honesty, and whether their technique is exactly the same, I didnot watch them enough to make detailed comparison. Usually programs with ugly (or "non-conventional" jumps) I dont watch that much. as far as my impression, some mechanic that caused their jump problems are similar. not exactly the "mule" kick.
As for who hold "grudges" against who, well, let us not go down that rabbit hole.
the bottom line is that Julia's flip/flutz（whatever）technique is indeed "bad" and that really is a honest judgement.
and to make my point even more clear, personally, I was never on the "bandwagon" of JuliaLip, before or after Sochi scandal. Her skating is just simply not my cup of tea. and has nothing to do with "grudge against Russia or judging scandal".
Being honest about flawed technique is not the same as saying "her jumps are like Caroline Zhang's," which I would say is a highly dishonest comparison which Miss Ice brought forth and with which I disagreed. Nobody (not you, not Miss Ice) has said anything that actually addresses the point I was making with the videos (other than the bizarre "I didn't bother to watch it so what you said must not be true as opposed to my vague impression" you seem to imply), and nobody has actually shown or discussed any similarity in their technical flaws. I would hardly have a pro-Lipnitskaya bias considering I was one of the first posters on the forum complaining about the gross overscoring of her Sochi Individual FS. So if you can tell me this "mechanic that caused their jump problems," I'm all ears.
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- Dec 29, 2013
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I don't know about that. Out of six flips she attempted on JGP and JGPF she received six edge calls. Four of them were full on (e) and two were (!). I agree that she has stable air positioning and she carries speed but having a guaranteed edge call 100% of the time isn't ideal let alone amongst the best techniques among even juniors. There is discussion going on in the JGPF ladies FS thread about her.
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how they use their upper body torque/arm to help they achieve their rotations in jumps.You don't watch that much? Then that means you can't possibly have seen enough to make a real conclusion and you have no basis for judgement, doesn't it?
this is my impression, I am no coach, nor expert, also, like I said, I do not watch program with ugly jump that often, and will not spend my time re-watch them, just my first-view impression, I could be wrong or irrelevant or perhap "no basis" for my judgement
I am not writing thesis, just a personal opinion. agree with it or not, its up to you, and I really do NOT care.but bottom line, 1, JuliaLip's jump tech is not good, 2, this judgement has nothing to do with "grudge against Russia"
and since we are talking about honesty, let us be honest here, I never accused you been pro-Julia, the only reason that we still dwell on this issue, and even Julia fans has quitted this futile topic is that I am a Yuna fan and you are a Maobot.
How amusing
and I am also out of here.
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It's not a truth. Julia's jumps higher.
I did research.
1. Mao 2. Adelina. 3. Liza. 4. Kostner. 5 Yuna. 6. Anna. 7 Gold. 8 Yulia. 9. Wagner 10 Elena. 11 Satoko
This sounds surprising, but Julia has highest toeloop. Yulia's 3T-3T higher than Liza's 3T-3T (on the Сup of China).
Full research and metodolodgy are here: http://forum.fsonline.ru/index.php?/topic/1188-%D0%BF%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%82%D1%82%D1%85-%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B5/
But into Russian language
I did research.
1. Mao 2. Adelina. 3. Liza. 4. Kostner. 5 Yuna. 6. Anna. 7 Gold. 8 Yulia. 9. Wagner 10 Elena. 11 Satoko
This sounds surprising, but Julia has highest toeloop. Yulia's 3T-3T higher than Liza's 3T-3T (on the Сup of China).
Full research and metodolodgy are here: http://forum.fsonline.ru/index.php?/topic/1188-%D0%BF%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%82%D1%82%D1%85-%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B5/
But into Russian language
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- Apr 16, 2006
You don't watch that much? Then that means you can't possibly have seen enough to make a real conclusion and you have no basis for judgement, doesn't it?
I think yyyskate is out of the discussion, as I will be soon, but I would just like to point out I never said Julia's technique is as bad as Caroline's. I simply said that people admitted that she has bad technique, despite her otherwise beautiful skating. There's nothing wrong with that. I am not trying to slander anyone, I am asking for an honest acceptance of your favorite skater's flaws. That is all. :agree:
I am abstaining from the Wakaba discussion on this thread since it is Senior GPF and it was not me who brought the topic of Wakaba in here in the first place. So, if you'd like to argue the topic of Wakaba's technique with me, please bring it to the JGPF thread or V/PMs or something.
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- Sep 17, 2011
Interesting, thanks for the link. Seems like they took video with 25 fps and they calculated jump height in cm using 0.5*g*(frames/25)[SUP]2[/SUP] - assumed gravitational acceleration of -10 m/(s*s) although this is a slight overestimation (~2%). Someone on this forum also ran video files through MATLAB to calculate jump height using similar methodology. For anyone who wants to know the breakdown of each jump from 2A through 3A, here it is.
3Axel: Мао, 18 frames air time (0.72s, 63.6cm)
Lutz: 1-5. Tuktamysheva, Yuna, Pogorilaya, Gold, Adelina all tied at 16 frames (0.64s); 6. Carolina; 7-9. Lipnitskaya, Мао, Radionova (14.5 frames); 10. Miyahara; 11. Wagner (doesn't know how/unable).
Flip: 1. Carolina (2nd highest jump after Asada's 3A, 16.5 frames or 0.66s); 2-4. Tuktamysheva, Мао, Adelina; 5. Yuna; 6. Lipnitskaya (14.5 frames); 7-9. Gold, Wagner, Pogorilaya; 10. Radionova (13.5 frames); 11 Miyahara.
Loop: 1. Adelina; 2-3. Мао, Carolina; 4-5. Tuktamysheva, Pogorilaya; 6-7. Gold, Wagner; 8-9. Lipnitskaya, Radionova (13.5 frames); 10. Miyahara; 11. Yuna (doesn't know how/unable)
Salchow: 1. Мао; 2. Carolina; 3-5. Tuktamysheva, Lipnitskaya (14 frames), Sotnikova; 6-7. Yuna, Gold; 8-10. Radionova (12.5 frames), Wagner, Pogorilaya; 11. Miyahara.
Toe Loop: 1. Lipnitskaya (15.5 frames); 2-3. Mao, Adelina; 4-5. Tuktamysheva, Yuna; 6. Carolina; 7. Pogorilaya; 8. Gold; 9. Radionova (12.5 frames); 10 Wagner; 11 Miyahara.
2A: 1-2. Tuktamysheva, Mao; 3. Adelina; 4. Yuna; 5-7. Gold, Wagner, Pogorilaya; 8-9. Lipnitskaya (13.5 frames), Carolina; 10. Radionova (12.5 frames); 11. Miyahara.
Data for Caro, Yuna, Mao, and Adelina were all taken from the Individual Olympic FS, Radionova/Gold from the 2013 Skate America FS, Pogo/Wagner/Satoko from the 2013 Skate Canada FS, Tukt/Julia from 2013 CoC FS except Julia's Flip was taken from the short and her Lutz was taken from the Team Olympic FS (?). Note that none of the data are from this season so the exact numbers might be a little out of date for this year's GPF. I was surprised to see Mao's Salchow higher than everyone else's considering its reputation for inconsistency, and I wouldn't have guessed that Carolina's 3F was higher than any of the 3Lutzes. Seeing Miyahara consistently in last place is a little depressing though not surprising; she never gets above 0.50s of air time (31cm).
That Liza is tied with Mao on 2A height sounds promising for her chances to master the 3A if she puts the time into it (time she might not consider worthwhile). As for the Lip vs. Radio discussion, Julia jumps consistently higher than Elena except on the Lutz and Loop where they are tied. Radionova does have better technique but so far it seems she is getting by through rotation speed, she's only consistently ahead of Miyahara on jump height so if she grows bigger, I'm unsure of how long she'll keep all her jumps. I didn't think Lipnitskaya's Salchow would be ranked so high (up there with Tukt's!) considering it has been giving her trouble. RE Pogo and Wagner, Pogo matches up with the best of them on the Lutz and is usually middle-high in this comparison so I think her prospects aren't too bad. Wagner's jumping never really impressed me so I don't have much to say about her.
The truly amusing thing is that everything for you apparently boils down to a Yuna vs Mao discussion.and since we are talking about honesty, let us be honest here, I never accused you been pro-Julia, the only reason that we still dwell on this issue, and even Julia fans has quitted this futile topic is that I am a Yuna fan and you are a Maobot.
How amusing
and I am also out of here.
I never saw anyone claiming that Julia's technique was particularly stellar or failing to accept the fact that she has technique issues on the 3F/3Lz; was I not just a few posts ago talking about how her edge change on the 3F/3Lz gets her edge calls on both? I was mainly annoyed by your initial comparison because Julia's technique though not the best is definitely better than Caroline's even in 2007 when she was landing her jumps. In any case, I agree there's not much point discussing it further.
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- Feb 26, 2014
@CarneAsada: Thank you for the explanation of that link. 
I tried to understand something with google translation but couldn't quite get it. I still don't, because there are different things I need to understand first, :hopelessness: but at least is in good english and not google.
I think Vanishilar works with MATLAB.
I tried to understand something with google translation but couldn't quite get it. I still don't, because there are different things I need to understand first, :hopelessness: but at least is in good english and not google.
I think Vanishilar works with MATLAB.
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crawling back to this thread, just to see what my fellow "Maobot" will say (since I am a Yuna fan of course
) And kinda disappointed, really "everything"? well this is another "dishonesty" from you... (gotta change to another emoticon, winked too much recently).
Sorry if this is a little hard to believe. But I guess there are some Russians who prefer Korean skaters to Russians...
Yuna is generally loved and respected during figure skating community and has fans over all the world, including Japan and Russian not because she is Korean of course, but she is a great skater. Like I said, this discussion about Julia's technique has nothing to do with "grange against Russia" until someone brought it up and accuse people of that and Wakaba is Japanese not Korean, And this is not about who prefer what skater of what nationality, it is just a discussion about technique unless someone wants to go down that rabbit hole.
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- Jan 11, 2014
Thank you, CarneAsada, for the translation/parsing of all that data. Most of it was as I suspected.
However, a few points do prove that "jump height" isn't the be-all-and-end-all. Mao and Yulia have fairly sizable salchows, but the jump gives them trouble. Of course, another possibility is that the sample might not be the most representative (for instance, Yulia's 2A at GPF was higher than the one she did at CoC; Liza does her SP 'tano 2A out of a spiral and her LP ones in a sequence/near the end of the program; Mao does hers with a 3T on the end, ect. Who knows what the height difference would be if we asked them each to jump a solo 2A ten times, from a basic entry?)
I maintain that it's dangerous to say someone has the "best technique" when they're a 13-year-old junior, with jumps that are yet untested.
However, a few points do prove that "jump height" isn't the be-all-and-end-all. Mao and Yulia have fairly sizable salchows, but the jump gives them trouble. Of course, another possibility is that the sample might not be the most representative (for instance, Yulia's 2A at GPF was higher than the one she did at CoC; Liza does her SP 'tano 2A out of a spiral and her LP ones in a sequence/near the end of the program; Mao does hers with a 3T on the end, ect. Who knows what the height difference would be if we asked them each to jump a solo 2A ten times, from a basic entry?)
I maintain that it's dangerous to say someone has the "best technique" when they're a 13-year-old junior, with jumps that are yet untested.
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- Mar 26, 2014
The big question is in which country these Russians reside....
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- Sep 17, 2011
Yes that's definitely true about the variance between competitions. The poster added that with all the skaters, the highest jump was taken. But on 'tano or combination jumps, that was another comment added by the poster. The 16-frame (0.64s) Lutzes were said to all be that high only as the first jump in a combination. Mao's 3F was 0.5 frames higher in combination than solo (15.5 frames in combination, 15 frames solo). Liza's 'Tano 2A was tied with Asada's 2A. The OP of that analysis also commented that Lipnitskaya's 3T was that high in combinations (so I assume it was consistent across 2A-3T and 3Lz-3T). I did not see any other comments on special circumstances for the analysis of other skaters' jumps. Also I did not take their actual calculated jump height, only airtime, because when I used g of 9.81 it changed the heights a bit. Because it's only 25 fps there's also a possible error of around 0.5 frames or 0.02s, which doesn't sound like much but that error is squared, and sometimes when the camera rises and falls with the jumps it becomes more difficult to determine landing time (= higher uncertainty, up to 2 frames). Again, I'm not a fluent Russian speaker, so this is all what I got from parsing the text side-by-side with Google Translate and Wiktionary for looking up stray words, a native Russian speaker would do much better than me.
It's true that we can't talk about "best technique" for 13yo juniors, but we can definitely see juniors that look like they're muscling through their jumps, juniors that have mule kicks, juniors with flutzes, lips, toe Axels, etc. Great technique usually means your jumps can survive growth spurts even if you have trouble while you grow (like Liza, she had great technique and now that she's gotten used to her new size she's once again landing jumps well).
"I am not writing thesis, just a personal opinion. agree with it or not, its up to you, and I really do NOT care!"crawling back to this thread, just to see what my fellow "Maobot" will say (since I am a Yuna fan of course
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