View Poll Results: who gets your vote in nov.?

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  • Bush

    23 21.50%
  • Kerry

    77 71.96%
  • Nader

    2 1.87%
  • other

    5 4.67%
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Thread: who will u vote for in Nov.?

  1. #76
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Paradoxically enough, base closings are still going on. We hear here in CT that the Groton Navy base may be closed.

    Both parties bought into the ideas of base closings as a way of achieving balanced budgets or lowering taxes-the goal depending on the party. Neither one nor the other party can be blamed separately.

    What the current administration does bear some responsibility for is not understanding that the current army was not large enough to carry on war on two fronts, Afghanistan and Iraq, at the same time. When told by advisors and generals that this was so, guess what? They fired the advisors.

    And guess what now? They still will not admit they made a mistake about the size of the army.

    Those facts alone are enough to question the wisdom of giving Bush/Cheney a second term.

    If Bush is reelected, and you have young sons and daughters or grandsons or granddaughters, you need to be ready for them to be drafted into the military.

  2. #77
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    [QUOTE=PielThe point is that if you are against abortion you don't have to have one. But you don't have the right to dictate your moral beliefs as to what I can do with my body if I don't believe it is murder. That is the dividing point regarding abortion and will be debated forever. OTOH when an execution is carried out you know for sure that a living person is being murdered there is no question there no matter what your beliefs are. If even one person gets the death penalty by mistake that is one too many. ]






    The school systems started going down the drain as soon as they kicked God out of Public education. I'm old enough to have witnessed the decline in the morals of children since they have been robbed of their iinnocence and over exposed to sex.

    As for abortion, in the past, girls had abortions because it wasn't socially correct to have a child out of wedlock & I'm sure alot of the decisions were made in a moment of panic. Today, you can have a baby anytime you want without that stigma on the mother or the child, I cannot understand how anyone could say a unborn child is not a living human being and not made in the image of God, just as we are. God has a plan for every life and there are many childless couples who want to hold that baby and give it love. Ever baby, born or unborn should have the same protection we have as a human being. My heart bleeds for all the aborted babies and their misinformed mothers. Even people who believe in abortion call their baby a baby when they want it. I'm sure thy don't call it a fetus.

    I want a president who will value the life of every person born or unborn and is not afraid to stand up for what he believes even if it might cost him the election. George Bush stepped up to the plate on 911 and let the terrorist know the US is not going to rest till we get them all. I don't want the UN to make decisions for my country. I'm voting for Bush!!
    Last edited by Peggy; 07-07-2004 at 11:50 PM.

  3. #78
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    [QUOTE=Peggy]
    Quote Originally Posted by PielThe point is that if you are against abortion you don't have to have one. But you don't have the right to dictate your moral beliefs as to what I can do with my body if I don't believe it is murder. That is the dividing point regarding abortion and will be debated forever. OTOH when an execution is carried out you know for sure that a living person is being murdered there is no question there no matter what your beliefs are. If even one person gets the death penalty by mistake that is one too many.

    The school systems started going down the drain as soon as they kicked God out of Public education. I'm old enough to have witnessed the decline in the morals of children since they have been robbed of their iinnocence and over exposed to sex.

    As for abortion, in the past, girls had abortions because it wasn't socially correct to have a child out of wedlock & I'm sure alot of the decisions were made in a moment of panic. Today, you can have a baby anytime you want without that stigma on the mother or the child, I cannot understand how anyone could say a unborn child is not a living human being and not made in the image of God, just as we are. God has a plan for every life and there are many childless couples who want to hold that baby and give it love. Ever baby, born or unborn should have the same protection we have as a human being. My heart bleeds for all the aborted babies and their misinformed mothers. Even people who believe in abortion call their baby a baby when they want it. I'm sure thy don't call it a fetus.

    I want a president who will value the life of every person born or unborn and is not afraid to stand up for what he believes even if it might cost him the election. George Bush stepped up to the plate on 911 and let the terrorist know the US is not going to rest till we get them all. I don't want the UN to make decisions for my country. I'm voting for Bush!!
    And which God would that be?

  4. #79
    On Edge Piel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy
    [
    The school systems started going down the drain as soon as they kicked God out of Public education. I'm old enough to have witnessed the decline in the morals of children since they have been robbed of their iinnocence and over exposed to sex.

    As for abortion, in the past, girls had abortions because it wasn't socially correct to have a child out of wedlock & I'm sure alot of the decisions were made in a moment of panic. Today, you can have a baby anytime you want without that stigma on the mother or the child, I cannot understand how anyone could say a unborn child is not a living human being and not made in the image of God, just as we are. God has a plan for every life and there are many childless couples who want to hold that baby and give it love. Ever baby, born or unborn should have the same protection we have as a human being. My heart bleeds for all the aborted babies and their misinformed mothers. Even people who believe in abortion call their baby a baby when they want it. I'm sure thy don't call it a fetus.

    I want a president who will value the life of every person born or unborn and is not afraid to stand up for what he believes even if it might cost him the election. George Bush stepped up to the plate on 911 and let the terrorist know the US is not going to rest till we get them all. I don't want the UN to make decisions for my country. I'm voting for Bush!!
    God is as present as ever. If a student, teacher or anyone else in a public school or any public building feels disconnected from God that is a problem within that individual. Anyone can pray at anytime anywhere. I have never found myself in a place or situation thaty I could not worship God. What you can't do is force others to participate or be a witness to religious activity that may not be their beliefs on government property. I wonder if ithe majority of the citizens in the United States were Islamic, Catholic, or Jewish would the right wing still be trying to force one's private religious beliefs to be a part of government? Our consttution is there for everyone not just the majority. Children who have good moral values instilled in them at home by loving families seldom experience moral decline.

    Women choose to have abortions because they don't want to be mothers at that time or by the circumstances that may have caused a particular pregnancy. It is not a decision she makes lightly or enters into without careful thought, much soul searching, and prayer. As with any medical procedure informed consent is a matter of fact. Likewise, embryo and fetus are medical terms for the stages a fetilized ovum goes through before becoming a baby. I don't believe that God plans for anyone to be victims of rape or incest or for children to bear children. There are many childless couples who want to adopt healthy, newborn, white babies. It seems they are not so anxious to become parents when the child available for adoption is a minority, disfigured, chronically ill, or an older child that is a run away, has behaviour problems, or from an abusive home and has been shuffeled around the foster care system. Motherhood is a serious job and should not be forced on anyone who does not want it. This is a sure way to begin a dysfunctional family.

    A president who values the life of everyone does not force te elderly to choose between eating and buying their medications., or for people to work for a wage that will not give them the basic neccesities of life. But wait, THAT is where the Republicans decide it is time for government to bow out of peoples lives.
    Last edited by Piel; 07-08-2004 at 08:55 AM.

  5. #80
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Madison, Father of the Constitution, On Why the Church and State Must be Separate

    Perhaps the most important quote from President Madison's article is IMO:

    Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?
    If you have studied history (or even current events) at all, it is very clear that any time a religion becomes sponsored by the state, it uses that power to not only oppress members of other religions, but to brutally suppress differences in its own members.

    When the Puritans, who fled Europe so we are told, due to persecution, they set up a theocracy in MA that was so oppressive that people fled to RI, CT and VT to escape it.

    In England, as different kings of different religious persuasions took the throne, both Protestants and Catholics were burned, hacked and hanged. Henry VIII not only burned Catholics, he also burned Protestants who were not Epicopalian.

    You have only to look at the differences in Islam, and the bad effects of madrasa schools to know that religion and the state don't mix and lead to the creation of murderous regimes.

    We do not need to create Christian madrasas in this country.

    Do you want your children forced to say the Catholic version of the Lord's prayer if you are Protestant or the Protestant version if you are Catholic. Do you want all Jewish and Islamic children to feel non human and threatened in their schools here in the US?

    Please read Madison on why our founding fathers separated church and state. It was not just for the benefit of the nonChristians and the nonsectarians. It was to prevent the church itself from corruption.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy
    I want a president who will value the life of every person born or unborn...
    Hmmm - I don't see Bush making much of an effort for the born. Children still go to school hungry, lack medical care, and live in squalor - all of this in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. When we reach the point in which every child has adequate food, shelter and support, I'll be willing to reconsider my position on abortion. Rather than focus on lives which are not yet viable, I would prefer that we first direct our energy towards improving the lives of children already on this earth.

  7. #82
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    BittyBug: "Hmmm - I don't see Bush making much of an effort for the born. Children still go to school hungry, lack medical care, and live in squalor - all of this in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. When we reach the point in which every child has adequate food, shelter and support, I'll be willing to reconsider my position on abortion. Rather than focus on lives which are not yet viable, I would prefer that we first direct our energy towards improving the lives of children already on this earth."

    Children go to school hungry, lack medical care, and live in squalor in every country of the world, not just the US. In many cases, the reason for it is that that is the way the parents lived, and their parents before them, and they lack the knowledge, guidance or motivation to find a way out. That is a major social problem, and not one that can be solved overnight by the chief executive of any nation.

    Abortion and birth control are available, but the poor don't or won't choose or use them. Instead they continue to have children they can't feed, clothe or take care of. Many of the people who ARE having abortions DO have the means to take care of a child, but don't want to. So how is abortion helping the children who weren't aborted?

  8. #83
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    For me, full seperation of church and state is one of the most important political and social issues. Let's put aside the question of abortions for a while. One thing that worries me about America today is that "morality" and "religiousness" are becoming synonymous. I find it both scary and offensive. I consider both of my parents extremely moral people, yet my father is an atheist and my mother is an agnostic. Without mentionning G-d, they managed to instill in me the values of right and wrong, of helping others, and of doing what's right even when it's not easy. At the other extreme, I would site suicide bombers who are very religious yet do (in our opinion) very immoral acts. I understand and respect that for many religious people their belief becomes their moral compass. However, not having the belief does not mean one doesn't have a personal moral compass either.

    4 years ago, Joe Liberman said something I consider very scary, "Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, NOT freedom FROM religion". White he is technically correct, I shudder to think that our country is moving in this direction.

    Finally, I'd like to mention that I consdier the seperation of church and state beneficial for both institutions. If church can interfere with the affairs of the state, why should it be a one-way street? We afford our religious institutions a lot of special exemptions -- from being tax exempt to being exempt from equal opportunity type rules. I believe this can only be maintained with a full ssperation. We don't have to go the extremes that, say, France went to -- there, they outlawed outward signs of religion from schools. But we don't have to move the other way either.

    P.S. I wonder, what happened to the old style conservatives? Say, like Barry Goldwater with his famous, "They don't have to be straight, they just have to shoot straight"?
    Last edited by Ptichka; 07-08-2004 at 12:14 PM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    Children go to school hungry, lack medical care, and live in squalor in every country of the world, not just the US. In many cases, the reason for it is that that is the way the parents lived, and their parents before them, and they lack the knowledge, guidance or motivation to find a way out. That is a major social problem, and not one that can be solved overnight by the chief executive of any nation.
    Exactly - it's a major social problem and we should first be focusing on fixing those problems that are already on this earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    Abortion and birth control are available, but the poor don't or won't choose or use them. Instead they continue to have children they can't feed, clothe or take care of.
    The nerve of people to have children! Did it ever occur to you that lack of education may somehow be a factor? Just because birth control is available doesn't mean that everyone understands how to use it or the entire consequences of not using it (and I'm not talking about just pregnancy, but rather the entire responsibility of raising a child for 18 years and then some).

    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    So how is abortion helping the children who weren't aborted?
    By not adding more to the already too many number of children who are either unwanted, neglected, underfed, underloved, etc.
    Last edited by BittyBug; 07-08-2004 at 02:16 PM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bijoux
    1) Bush

    2) Kerry

    3) Nader

    4) other
    5) Button! :D :D :D

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI
    Toni, Congratulations on voting! Be sure and check into the policies of the minor officials you will be voting on as well as the big senate, house, governor, and presidential races. The first time I voted I hadn't a clue about the candidates for state legislature, and in many ways those are the people who will most affect your own life, and particularly who will have the most to do with improving the quality of public education in your area. The next time I voted, I had done my homework better.

    As to schools, I thought it might be interesting to throw up for discussion the state rankings for this last year, done by morganquitno, who will sell you a whole book on the details.

    The items used for ranking are at the bottom of the page.
    Being rural does not keep states from doing a good job at education. Montana (4) and Vermont (2) are very rural.
    Being culturally diverse and having some dreadful poverty pockets does not keep a state from scoring well. New Jersey is 5th. Being poor is no guarantee of badness. Vermont (2) is 26th in income. Being rich is no guarantee of goodness. Texas is 34th and CA is 44.

    It should be note that John Kerry is from Massachussetts, the state currently ranking highest. He was a lt. governor of it, and I believe attorney general at one time, but it's a long time ago and has nothing to do with MA's education ranking. George Bush,however, is from the wealthiest state in the union, which can only muster 34th, and he was a governor of it and has a lot to do with how it is. I would not like education to keep looking more like Texas, which is what he seems to be doing.

    1 Massachusetts 16.59
    2 Vermont 16.43
    3 Connecticut 15.8
    4 Montana 9.48
    5 New Jersey 9.39
    6 Maine 7.67
    7 Pennsylvania 7.33
    8 Wisconsin/Iowa (tie) 6.55
    10 New York 6.16

    11 Nebraska 5.24

    23 Alaska -0.08

    34 Texas -2.93

    44 California -9.45

    50 New Mexico -22.04

    POSITIVE (+ 1-13) AND NEGATIVE (- 15-21) FACTORS CONSIDERED:
    Public Elementary and Secondary School Revenue per $1,000 Personal Income (Table 55) +
    Per Pupil Public Elementary and Secondary School Current Expenditures (Table 109) +
    Percent of Public Elementary and Secondary School Current Expenditures used for Instruction (Table 133) +
    Percent of Population Graduated from High School (Table 172) +
    Public High School Graduation Rate (Table 175) +
    Percent of Public School Fourth Graders Proficient or Better in Reading (Table 193) +
    Percent of Public School Eighth Graders Proficient or Better in Reading (Table 201) +
    Percent of Public School Fourth Graders Proficient or Better in Writing (Table 209) +
    Percent of Public School Eighth Graders Proficient or Better in Writing (Table 217) +
    Percent of Public School Fourth Graders Proficient or Better in Mathematics (Table 225) +
    Percent of Public School Eighth Graders Proficient or Better in Mathematics (Table 233) +

    Percent of 4th Graders Whose Parents Have Strict Rules about Getting Homework Done (Table 282) -
    Average Teacher Salary as a Percent of Average Annual Pay of All Workers in State(Table 346) -
    Percent of School-Age Population in Public Schools (Table 416) -
    High School Drop Out Rate (Table 185) -
    Percent of Public School Teachers Who Reported Being Physically Attacked in the Past 12 Months (Table 261) -
    Special Education Pupil-Teacher Ratio (Table 325) -
    Percent of Public Elementary and Secondary School Staff Who are School District Administrators (Table 361) -
    Estimated Pupil-Teacher Ratio in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools (Table 371) -
    Average Class Size in Public Elementary Schools (Table 394) -
    Average Class Size in Public Secondary Schools (Table 395) -

    California is only 44th? How embarassing.

  12. #87
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    kerry all the way. i don't want someone who wants to tell me how to live my life (the whole marriage protection thing is just horrible) in office.

    jay leno said it best: "president bush says he is deeply troubled by judges granting marriage licenses to gay couples, and feels that in important matters, the country should decide. but in matters that concern the country, like who gets to become president, he feels that judges should be able to decide..."

  13. #88
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Well, TTCL, Californians seem to bring on their own troubles. For instance, they make strange choices for Governor.

    I'm glad you take the time to do your election day homework, though! If only everyone did!!! It galls me how we choose candidates by method of a "popularity contest," with less care in our choices than we take to hire a gas station attendant. (At least we ask to see his resume!) There are no particular qualifications, other than having enough money to run a campaign and -- POPULARITY!!!

    As for John Kerry, if you look at his record in the Senate, it is not stellar. Of all the candidates the Democrats fielded, he was my least favorite, because he is part and parcel of the DC status quo. The Libertarian candidate (right now you're probably asking, "Who?"), Michael Badnarik looks like the best candidate in terms of policy. (See: http://www.badnarik.org/) Trouble is, the Libs can't afford to run a big campaign like the two "main" parties. Not only don't they have the typical "war chest," but they won't accept federal matching dollars.

    So this election day, I'm torn between holding my nose and voting to simply unseat Bush, or voting my conscience and being able to sleep at night.

    Oh, and this just in: the Communist Party of America has thrown it's support behind Kerry. Hmmm...

  14. #89
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisthingcalledlove
    California is only 44th? How embarassing.
    As one commentator said, California should have a ballot question to outlaw ballot questions. At some point, Californians voted on a property tax cap. Not a good idea (at least if you want to keep social programs going, that is)! As any arithmetic student will tell you, if you take 1 away from 5, the result will never be equal to 5.

    That's my problem with Libertarians. While I love the idea of social Libertarianism, I feel that the governement should do a lot to right the wrongs of society. Otherwise, it just becomes social Darwinism. Also, I've just gone to the website you gave here, and found the platform incredibly naive. Let's take the example of trade. Talking about giving individuals more chances for peaceful trade is nonsense when it comes to regimes such as China, which shoot people for trying to organize unions. Just one example.
    Last edited by Ptichka; 07-26-2004 at 01:20 PM.

  15. #90
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Our basic premise is different, though. I don't see the role of government being responsible for "social programs." No mention of them in the Constitution! (Although the term "social programs" is rather sweeping -- I guess it depends on your definition.) Since we're not socialists, I don't see such programs falling under the purview of government.

    The Libertarian platform, just like those of the Dems, Republicans, Greens, etc., is a very simplistic outline of their imagined ideal. Obviously where matters of national security and international trade negotiations, where governments are involved, would be more complicated. Libertarians realize this.

    The definition of insanity is repeatedly doing the same things and expecting a different result. The status quo isn't working. We've gotten away from our Constitution -- the bedrock of what makes America unique. A change is needed, and Bush and Kerry are part and parcel of the status quo.

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