2015 Russian Nationals Mens SP

yay · Dec 25, 2014

Li'Kitsu said:
Even if you think the judges are doing it - it is still not what the rules say should be done. IMO, it's also not what a little bit of thinking about this system would tell you. Judges also aren't capable to differentiate between the different PCS categories - that also doesn't make it right, it's still BS.

And for Hanyu: his PCS might also be going up because he's actually a WAY better skater than Kovtun. He's also the OGM and the WC. I don't think Kovtun is any of that.

The numbers show that PCS is manipulated this way. Whether it is right or not is not the point. I'm neither praising or justifying the system, I'm just stating the obvious and wondering why there still are people who deny this and refer to the xrulesx instead.
Um, Hanyu being a much better skater has nothing to do with it. Kovtun himself has nothing to do with it. We were arguing whether a clean skate and a difficult layout(especially in comparison to the rest of the competing field at a competition) tend to positevely affect a skater's score in all the PCS categories(of course, it goes the other way around as well). Yuzuru's FS program this time was the same TR and CH-wise as before, didn't you notice it? )
As I said, this was just the most recent example.

Of course Kovtun doesn't deserve 45 PCS but who cares when all the guys are equally overscored.

No, he doesn't and yes, they are. :biggrin:

Let them get their Christmas presents. :hb:

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 25, 2014

WYW said:
I don't think international judges are so keen on Kovtun anymore (look at his GPF scores), but who knows what they are going to do in the future. In the end, if judges are consistently deducting his solo 4T due to lack of preceding steps, which they should, his solo quad is only worth 2-3 points more than a well done 3Lz. I don't think the 2 quads are giving him as much of an advantage as you think they are.

They do give him a 4 point increase than a triple lutz plus the GOE scaling is higher if he executes it well. And quads tend to get +2s moreso than solo lutzes as a general observation (I mean how many guys get a 3 or even 2s across the board for lutzes?). A quad is worth more of a difference than a 3-3 versus a 3-2. So saying a second quad isn't an advantage is like saying a woman opting for a 3-2 instead of a 3-3 is negligible.

Meoima · Dec 25, 2014

yay said:
Yuzuru's FS program this time was the same TR and CH-wise as before, didn't you notice it? )

not to disagree with you or anything. just saying his PCS at GPF almost stays the same, even lower than last season.
I've heard it's simplify version with less TR and difficult entries... let's wait and see will he pull off the original version.

WYW · Dec 25, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
They do give him a 4 point increase than a triple lutz plus the GOE scaling is higher if he executes it well. And quads tend to get +2s moreso than solo lutzes as a general observation (I mean how many guys get a 3 or even 2s across the board for lutzes?). A quad is worth more of a difference than a 3-3 versus a 3-2. So saying a second quad isn't an advantage is like saying a woman opting for a 3-2 instead of a 3-3 is negligible.

Please look at GPF where half the judges deducted him due to a lack of proceeding steps on a pretty nicely executed 4T. Now imagine the GOE if ALL of judges deducted him for it. He scored 10.01 for that element and now compare that to Machida's 3Lz from the same competition- 7.40. Im not arguing that a solo 4T isn't an advantage over a 3Lz, I am saying HIS 4T in his current setup isn't worth as much as you think compared to a nicely done 3Lz.

Sandpiper · Dec 25, 2014

My impression from the fan cams:

Pitkeev: I think he has nice lines and posture compared to some of the other guys. And finally, a clean SP with a quad-triple! However, he seems to lack a little speed, command, and presence compared to the other skaters.

Gachinski: Watching him back-to-back with Pitkeev, I do think he has more presence and power even with the fall. I'm surprised he didn't get more PCS (comparatively).

Petrov: Now this is a youngster that does have presence. :yes: The skate was a little wobbly (almost-trip after the lutz, and possibly another in the step sequence?), but this is the guy I'll be watching for the future.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 25, 2014

Sandpiper said:
Several things:

If all that matters is placement and not the scores, why are you (still) bringing up Plushenko's scores from a year ago? He lost, didn't he? And pretty much the same thing applies to Hanyu at GPF; he was overscored, but he deserved the win.

Kovtun had a turn-out; Menshov had a hand down. While the latter was a bigger mistake and more disruptive, I don't think it's 6 points worse. That's all I really can say, because yes, whether they give Kovtun 45 or 35 isn't what matters. As long as the numbers work out tomorrow and there's no 2013 Worlds situation.

Also, are you saying that if Kovtun had skated clean, you would've given him the same PCS as Machida at GPF? I... really can't agree with that, not when Machida's error was stepping out of a -3T. I mean, if Machida had went splat on his combo, then tripped during his footwork sequence, then couldn't hold a spin... Then I might understand.

Elena and Yulia are better than Kovtun in every area of PCS, in addition to their better consistency (well, Yulia before this season).

Firstly, Machida probably deserved higher PCS and secondly Kovtun executed two quads which is harder. So a perfect performance with two quads abd well performed for a relatively establishe skater (because lets be honest, it affects scoring, even if it shouldnt) makes sense to get 41 PCs

AprilS · Dec 25, 2014

I'm going to restate that I find nothing really horrendous about the scoring here taking into account nationals inflation. However, I begin to raise my eyebrow higher each time I read your post equating higher difficulty with higher PCS. My following post is based on a general argument and not necessarily on this competition:

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
So a male skater who has an excellent program/skating skills can execute a "clean skate" with 3T-2T, 2A and 3S in their SP and deserve 45 PCS over a skater who lands a 4T/3A/3-3?

In theory, I actually think that's how it should be according to the written rules (not that it actually happens like that). The guys who can at least land a 3A or quad also tend to have better skating skills and transitions than skaters who can't anyways. I even think that having more "effortless" skating helps skaters perform/interpret better because they're not constantly worried about tripping over their feet. Lets look at it in the opposite way: if a skater like, say, Patrick does a program with 3T-2T, 2A and 3S, do you think that he would suddenly deserve an 8.00 for SS? Maybe you do. I personally don't. I would think that he would still deserve sky high SS marks. Likewise, if Boyang suddenly comes up with a 4A, 4S, and 4T-3T do you think that he would suddenly deserve 9.00+ in P/E, assuming he does the exact same programs he's been doing all season just with the jumps replaced? Again, maybe you think he would deserve such high marks. I can certainly see an online outrage if such a hypothetical event happened though.

And Likitsu I personally find nothing wrong with a skater like Kovtun getting 41-42 PCS for a clean skate with 2 quads ... But I take issue with people saying "Yuzuru normally gets 101 for a perfect skate, so a fall and 94 points is fine". Same goes for past scores of Chan too. And Kostner. And many others.

It's mind boggling how people will cry foul and say skaters don't deserve PCS for clean technically difficult skates and then defend scores of skaters who fall/make major errors because they're "overall a better skater" and "compared to his max score...".

The "compared to his max score..." thing is really just a lazy argument. It's a justification for scores based on trust of previous protocols, and then subtracting the point deductions for a fall. It's based on protocols, sure, but without an actual score breakdown/analysis, I think it's really just kind of lazy... and perhaps kind of annoying. On the other hand, the "overall better skater" argument makes more sense to me. One mistake isn't going to suddenly make a skater who is "overall better" than a clean skater suddenly the worse skater, even if in one's opinion they have the worse program at that competition due to the mistake vs clean perception - because being "overall better" is going to show up in every aspect of the skate where they didn't mess up- it's going to show up in the other jump GOEs, it's going to show up in the spin GOEs, the stsq GOEs, and each of the five aspects of PCS. Those points add up and can easily overcome a clean vs one mistake difference.

That is what kills our sport.. When a skater can commit 5 falls and still end up 2nd. Not when a skater skates clean with essentially maximum possible content and gets rewarded for it. Not many skaters attempt two quads in their SP so the moment a skater actually does a practically clean program te first response is - OVERSCORED!, while a skater who falls an has just one quad gets a break "oh well, mathematically let's deduct from past maximum scores to justify it". It's ridiculous.

I'm also not really sure what the problem is since everyone's PCS is through the roof at this competition. That being said, correct me if I'm wrong, but most people seem to have a problem with Kovtun's PCS... which many argue shouldn't be so tied to jump content. This seems to be where the largest conflict is. Disregarding Kovtun and this particular competition for a moment, I'm wondering what your justification for higher difficulty = automatically higher PCS is?
1. SS:
a. Yes-Perhaps one can argue that harder jumps are due to a better control of the blade, thus warranting higher SS marks than a skater might otherwise get. (Personally, I don't think so)
b. No- Jumps have nothing to do with skating skills. (probably not necessarily true either)

2. Transitions:
a. Yes- Perhaps one can also argue that transitions/linking footwork is made harder by the inclusion of harder jumps and should be rewarded. If a skater does a quad and complex one foot transitions out of it, I think that they would get higher Tr marks than a skater who does a triple and the same footwork out of it.
b. No- If the transitions themselves are few and inferior around the jumps, I don't really think that's a very good justification. Also, most transitions aren't actually centered around jumps anyways.

3. P/E:
a. Yes- If a skater has flow and flare and confidence doing these difficult jumps, then I think it can definitely add to a performance- but this is dependent on how the jumps are executed and I don't think just being "clean" is good enough.
b. No- I'm not too sure how more difficult jumps automatically help a skater perform better, especially if skater x is noticeably concentrating and disregarding the performance to set up these difficult jumps.

4. Composition/Choreography:
a. Yes- Can difficult jumps mean better choreography? That probably depends on what one's perception of "choreography" is.
b. No- The problem, I think arises when jumps aren't really integrated into a performance.

5. Interpretation/Timing: Is a quad more "musical" than of a triple lutz? Do harder jumps help interpret music better? Again, maybe, maybe not.
a. Yes - For example, I can see a powerful quad helping to enhance a musical highlight of a piece like "Spartacus"...
b. No- ...but I don't think that's the case for all pieces of music, and certainly not for all performances. Again, I don't think that simply doing a harder jump is good enough.

In conclusion, I can see how more difficult jumps, when done well and to the music with good quality, difficult transitions in and out of them can add to PCS marks, but I don't see how they would be an automatic addition of PCS marks just for being landed. For a given program, if most of the points are "a. Yes" then great! We've got a champion! However, if most of these PCS points are a "b. No" then, I think that's when the claws and pitchforks come out. I think that the "He landed harder jumps therefore he should get high PCS" is an even sillier argument than the "He's an overall better skater, therefore he should get high PCS marks" argument, and I think (when not justified with score analysis) that's a rather silly argument too (no offense if that's honestly what you think- I just honestly disagree).

P.s. please feel free to add any point to the "yes's" and "no's" categories that I may have missed/disregarded.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Of course Kovtun doesn't deserve 45 PCS but who cares when all the guys are equally overscored. As for 41/42 PCS for a clean skate i think that's fine... Kovtun is still a good skater and when a good but not great skater goes clean with 2 quads that to me deserves an overall score that is better than a great skater who falls.

I think that really depends on the fall and what you mean by "clean". Good skaters can go clean or clean-ish without necessarily hitting it out of the ball park, and a great skater might skate the heck out of a program even if they fall.

Interspectator · Dec 26, 2014

Just to be clear, I don't think Kovtun should get a PCS boost because of the quads in his SP. -It's because his program is stronger than Vornov and Menshov's in terms of boxes checked in PCS.

I dread to see the day when PCS is wholly tethered to quads and just not falling down. Otherwise Boyang Jin would have won over Shoma Uno at JGPF had he completed his very empty FS with his 3 quads.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 26, 2014

WYW said:
Please look at GPF where half the judges deducted him due to a lack of proceeding steps on a pretty nicely executed 4T. Now imagine the GOE if ALL of judges deducted him for it. He scored 10.01 for that element and now compare that to Machida's 3Lz from the same competition- 7.40. Im not arguing that a solo 4T isn't an advantage over a 3Lz, I am saying HIS 4T in his current setup isn't worth as much as you think compared to a nicely done 3Lz.

I think psychologically being a skater with 2 quads sets him apart from the other competitors so judges automatically regard his program as more difficult overall, which at the very least lends itself to better PE scores if he does well, and (as a stretch) better SS/CH scores since he shows the ability to execute two different quads.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 26, 2014

Newbiespectator said:
Just to be clear, I don't think Kovtun should get a PCS boost because of the quads in his SP. -It's because his program is stronger than Vornov and Menshov's in terms of boxes checked in PCS.

I dread to see the day when PCS is wholly tethered to quads and just not falling down. Otherwise Boyang Jin would have won over Shoma Uno at JGPF had he completed his very empty FS with his 3 quads.

I'd say I dread to see the day when PCS is untethered from major errors but clearly that's been going on for a while. I'm all for all around skaters but I'm all for clean skates by inferior skaters placing ahead of flawed skates by artistically superior slash more popular skaters.

Interspectator · Dec 26, 2014

I disagree, but never mind. Placements were correct, scores were very high for all of the guys so good for them.

evangeline · Dec 26, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
So a male skater who has an excellent program/skating skills can execute a "clean skate" with 3T-2T, 2A and 3S in their SP and deserve 45 PCS over a skater who lands a 4T/3A/3-3?

Yes, in theory if the "clean skate" skater demonstrates excellent SS, TR, PE, IN and CH as defined by the rules. That is the point of having a separate Program Components Score--otherwise, just look at the TES and call it a day.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 26, 2014

Newbiespectator said:
I disagree, but never mind. Placements were correct, scores were very high for all of the guys so good for them.

Agreed. Nationals is also a confidence booster for many skaters so inflated marks are the norm. Elvis never really deserved 6.0 artistry marks but I'm sure he received some at Nationals.

It's typical for exorbitantly high marks to be given to the best skater. There's no way Kim would h e scored an 80 SP outside of North Korea so judges just bump everyone's marks up and I don't see the harm in that as everyone is aware of what's going on.

HanDomi · Dec 26, 2014

So many pages of discussion over overscoring at NATIONALS

Really ? :drama:

machin · Dec 26, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
It's typical for exorbitantly high marks to be given to the best skater. There's no way Kim would h e scored an 80 SP outside of North Korea so judges just bump everyone's marks up and I don't see the harm in that as everyone is aware of what's going on.

Well, I'm not sure miss Kim would have been very welcomed in North Korea. I know it's a typo

Meoima · Dec 26, 2014

machin said:
Well, I'm not sure miss Kim would have been very welcomed in North Korea

starlight97 · Dec 26, 2014

machin said:
Well, I'm not sure miss Kim would have been very welcomed in North Korea.

Don't think anybody is welcome there, not even Yuna Kim :laugh:

Li'Kitsu · Dec 26, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
So a male skater who has an excellent program/skating skills can execute a "clean skate" with 3T-2T, 2A and 3S in their SP and deserve 45 PCS over a skater who lands a 4T/3A/3-3?

Yes. As evangeline said, that's what separate TES and PCS are for. Now if the balance between TES and PCS is fine the way it is, that's another discussion.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
And Likitsu I personally find nothing wrong with a skater like Kovtun getting 41-42 PCS for a clean skate with 2 quads ... But I take issue with people saying "Yuzuru normally gets 101 for a perfect skate, so a fall and 94 points is fine". Same goes for past scores of Chan too. And Kostner. And many others.

It's mind boggling how people will cry foul and say skaters don't deserve PCS for clean technically difficult skates and then defend scores of skaters who fall/make major errors because they're "overall a better skater" and "compared to his max score...".

That is what kills our sport.. When a skater can commit 5 falls and still end up 2nd. Not when a skater skates clean with essentially maximum possible content and gets rewarded for it. Not many skaters attempt two quads in their SP so the moment a skater actually does a practically clean program te first response is - OVERSCORED!, while a skater who falls an has just one quad gets a break "oh well, mathematically let's deduct from past maximum scores to justify it". It's ridiculous.

And why again are you bringing up Hanyu...? I take issue with Kovtun getting 40+ PCS. Simply put because he's not that good of a skater.
PCS are supposed to reward "overall better skaters". A skater who is better in SS, TR, CH, IN and PE should score higher than the other skater, no matter the technical content. Now you're bringing up clean or not, which wasn't even part of your first argument. IMO, clean vs not clean execution should effect the PCS, the attempted difficulty should not. Those are 2 different things.

2015 Russian Nationals Mens SP

yay

CanadianSkaterGuy

Meoima

Match Penalty

WYW

Sandpiper

CanadianSkaterGuy

AprilS

Interspectator

CanadianSkaterGuy

CanadianSkaterGuy

Interspectator

evangeline

CanadianSkaterGuy

HanDomi

machin

Meoima

Match Penalty

starlight97

Li'Kitsu

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