Is Johnny Weir America's Great Hope for Gold in Torino?

Yevgeny has been talking about doing 4 quads for years. I'll believe it when I see it.

Can't make a prediction but I hope it's Tim who's has a chance for gold out of the American men. Truthfully I can't imagine anyone else winning the OG but Plushenko. Of course I know upsets happen all the time. I wouldn't even say I'm a Plushenko fan...yet but I think he would he would totally deserve the gold. I just hope he skates up to his level where there would be no question.

I heard Plushenko's not getting surgery, but I'm not too sure if that was true or not. Even though I'm not the biggest Plushenko fan, I still would hate to see him hurt himself even more. ::wishes that they all stay healthy for a fantastic '06 competition::

If Plushenko is seen as the front-runner, then I think Joubert will continue being his biggest rival. Although he doesn't seem to have a style, I think his style is already evident...he is masculine, smooth, and very classy. He does have a blank expression, but I was thinking this fit with the "Matrix" program. His spins are weak, though. I'm just in love with his jumps haha.

If Timothy gets better posture/artistry...then maybe. But right now I'm not too sure about him. Honda sort of bores me...but we'll see how he is next season.

As for Stefan being a one-hit wonder...I hope he's able to prove it wasn't a fluke! I'm cheering for him, too, anyways.

I also love Stephane Lambiel, he has great charisma and is musical, but I still think he is very sloppy...his spins are the best though, and maybe under CoP this will be rewarded more! ::cheers for Stephane::

I think Andrei Griazev has a lot of potential, but he always looks very sloppy and very exhausted. Johnny Weir has proved that he can pull it off under pressure (Nationals & Worlds) but I still think he looks absolutely petrified. This is just my preference, but I think he is a little too soft (although this is his style)...and Evan Lysacek does look very gangly. And his flailing arms bother me more than Plushenko's do though I'm not sure why. These guys should be threats for the top by 2010.

And I don't see Michael Weiss making it to the podium at all...

So I say, Plushenko/Joubert/Lambiel as my top preferences. But I'm just extremely anxious for 2005!!

berthes ghost said:

Umm....am I the only one who remembers SLC 4th place finisher and two time world bronze medalist Takeshi Honda?

What about Li and Dambier? Griazev and Weir may be this months's flavors, but I still think it's a wide field.

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I thought that Honda was retiring, but even if he's not, I think he's a long-shot for the podium under CoP, because he has inconsistent landings, and he's had pretty empty programs for his last couple of LP's. I also think that with the advent of the crop of younguns who are realizing their potential, as well as late-bloomer Lindemann, the competition will be deeper, and experience won't carry him over.

I really like Li, but RGirl wrote a comprehensive post on the physiology of his second-half melt-downs, and unless he changes his program strategy, I don't see him threatening for gold. I think the same is true for Zhang, who had a wonderful program this year (Danse Macabre), but ran out of gas, like Li. (It's really noticeable live when they lose their legs, and it's depressing to watch.)

Dambier has very dodgy landings; Joesitz pointed out in Dortmund that he lands most of his jumps on his toe-pick. His jumps entries are often weak, either with a severe angle into jump, instead of the natural curve, or a skid. I saw one jump per program that I thought would qualify for more than base score under CoP. He would need to change his jump technique.

soogar said:

Yevgeny has been talking about doing 4 quads for years. I'll believe it when I see it.

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Every figure skating fan or not fan of Evgeni is concerned about the knee. When he doesn't do well, his fans claim it's the knee. Yet he plans all those quads?

Do you think the knee problem is a hoax? or not really all that bad?

Joe

Joesitz said:

Every figure skating fan or not fan of Evgeni is concerned about the knee. When he doesn't do well, his fans claim it's the knee. Yet he plans all those quads?

Do you think the knee problem is a hoax? or not really all that bad? Joe

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It's definitely not a hoax. He's been in contact with Dr. William I. Sterett, Head Team Physician for the United States Women's Alpine Ski Team, and a member of the famous Steadman-Hawkins Clinic in Vail, Colorado. They discussed his injury and as far as I know the dr. wanted to operate but Evgeni wanted to wait till after the season. If he will have the surgery though, nobody knows.

Evgeni and Dr. William Sterett

Just scroll down till you see Evgeni together with Dr Sterett.

Supposedly it's a torn meniscus and that's kinda bad I think. Even those types of injuries can hurt less at times but they don't heal by themselves, as far as I know. Or do they? I don't know.

What matters is that Evgeni doesn't blame any of his losses on any injury even if his fans or non-fans do.

BTW, this is my first post so please go easy on me

Gold in Torino

Joesitz,

Interesting comment about Pleshenko's knee problem being a hoax. Because of the avid Pleshenko fans, I have been reluctant to post about this possibility. Does make a person wonder though, doesn't it?

Dizzy

Joe, I'm a big fan of Plushy but I'm kind of concerned about his knee. I have visions of what happened with Alexie Urmanov happening to Plushy if he doesn't force himself to take some kind of break.

Sometimes I think Mishin focuses too much on the trees instead of the forest. It's better than Plushy do what he needs to do now and have two years to recover for the Olympics rather than plow though to worlds and then he might injure himself even more.

Of course no athlete wants to have surgery if the problem is manageable which I think it is at the moment. However I don't see Plushy doing 4 quads next year and if he does, I don't think he'll be a factor in the 2006 Olympics b/c he's gonna wreck his knee getting those quads.

Hi Andromica and welcome to Golden Skate. No attacks in Golden Skate and certainly not from me.

I did see the phot of Dr. Streit but no diagnosis and and no prognosis. I don't doubt you but I would like to read something more about his problematic knee. BTW, those photos are really wonderful and should bring many moments of reflection to Evgeni in his later years.

Soogar - I do know what a torn cartilege is. Way back when there was no artroscopic surgery I had my cartilege torn out and consequently stopped dancing and at the point skating, too. In those days, it was called a trick knee until it was removed surgically. The arthritus then sets in and a decade or sol later comes the knee replacements.

I do feel for Evgeni if that is what he is going through and facing. I don't blame him for not having the surgery which will happen in the future. It's just when he misses, the fans claim it's the knee and then they praise him for working on 4 quads. I would like to read a diagnosis and prognosis of the knee. (As you know, quads, for me, are just circus tricks.)

Cheers - Joe

Joesitz said:

Hi Andromica and welcome to Golden Skate. No attacks in Golden Skate and certainly not from me.

I did see the phot of Dr. Streit but no diagnosis and and no prognosis. I don't doubt you but I would like to read something more about his problematic knee. BTW, those photos are really wonderful and should bring many moments of reflection to Evgeni in his later years.

Soogar - I do know what a torn cartilege is. Way back when there was no artroscopic surgery I had my cartilege torn out and consequently stopped dancing and at the point skating, too. In those days, it was called a trick knee until it was removed surgically. The arthritus then sets in and a decade or sol later comes the knee replacements.

I do feel for Evgeni if that is what he is going through and facing. I don't blame him for not having the surgery which will happen in the future. It's just when he misses, the fans claim it's the knee and then they praise him for working on 4 quads. I would like to read a diagnosis and prognosis of the knee. (As you know, quads, for me, are just circus tricks.)

Cheers - Joe

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Thank you Joe!

The only thing so far is this, but I'll keep looking and edit my post when/if I find more. Maybe someone else knows more than I do?

News from Ari Zakarian from CMM (Collins-Marshall Management), his agent, and was posted on Sherrie's site in January. The photo was posted on Evgeni's official site. (Hope I'm not doing anything wrong by posting this )

January 1, 2004

Evgeni has consulted with Dr. William I. Sterett at the Steadman-Hawkins clinic in Vail, Colorado about his knee injury. The doctor has confirmed the Meniscus diagnosis and surgery has been planned for later this year after Evgeni finishes skating with the Summer COI tour. Dr. Sterett will perform the surgery.

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Here's the link

What I've found so far. I see no reason to doubt their word.

Joesitz:

I don't know, but Paul Martini was sure impressed with his debut at the Worlds. He loved his programs and his skating abilities. Paul predicts when Johnny W. get's the quads under his belt he will be a contender.

Thanks for doing the research, Andromica, and welcome to Golden Skate.

I think Evgeny has been consistent in saying that he planned to have the surgery later this summer. Last year the speculation was all about whether he should wait even that long.

BTW, for Plushenko fans, that's a great picture of Evgeny with his doctor on Andromica's link (click on "picture").

Back to Johnny, I think he has great potential and definitely will be in the medals hunt in Torino. He says that he has practiced two different quads already, but did not feel quite secure enough to try them at Dortmund.

Mathman

I just wish Johnny had gone to 4CC. That would not only have been the perfect place to try out his quad, but I think he would easily have been on the podium there, considering how flawed Sandhu's and Buttle's skating was.

Thanks Mathman!

But Evgen is also consistent in saying that if you miss a week of practicing you need at least three weeks to catch up. That might be one reason why he hesitates. Not sure how long this kind of operation will keep you from practicing though. It's always a risk but the risk is even bigger without the operation.

Back to Johnny...he needs to try out his quad in a competition. He has such great potential but even with the quad he needs to work on his presentation skills IMO. There's loads of time before Torino and if he keeps working hard on these things I believe he will be in the medals hunt.

andromica said:

Back to Johnny...he needs to try out his quad in a competition. He has such great potential but even with the quad he needs to work on his presentation skills IMO.

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Andromica, what in your opinion is wrong with Johnny's presentation skills that he needs to work on? Just curious.

Dee

Andrommica - Those factors which the presentation mark in Cop count are: basic skill - his jump tehniqwue is perfect (true edges in entering, good position in the air, and perfect edge and flow out of the jump. His spins positions are second to none.

What Johnny needs is a personal style. This has to develop eventually. He's young and has been skating for only 6-7 years. What other skater started at 12 years old?

Joe

andromica said:

But Evgen is also consistent in saying that if you miss a week of practicing you need at least three weeks to catch up. That might be one reason why he hesitates. Not sure how long this kind of operation will keep you from practicing though. It's always a risk but the risk is even bigger without the operation.

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Interesting, because that's the same formula ballet dancers use: miss one class, and it takes three days to get back up to speed.

One of the advantages of recuperating from surgery or an injury is the ability to start afresh and undo bad habits. Plushenko has been overcompensating for his knee all year. Taking time off will allow him to unlearn "bad" muscle memory and to reestablish basic technique. Plus, he'll be able to do upper body and abdominal work during his recuperation, which should help his quad attempts and protect his back.

Dee4707 said:

Andromica, what in your opinion is wrong with Johnny's presentation skills that he needs to work on? Just curious. Dee

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Dee, I don't think that there's anything wrong with his presentation, but there are some things lacking IMO.

When I look at Johnny skating I don’t see Johnny, I see an empty page in a book. Like any book it can be filled with experiences, memories, drama and emotions and I have yet to see that in Johnny. I want to see personality on the ice, not something forced and expressionless.

I want to be captivated and drawn in. He just doesn't do it for me, at this point in his career.

I admit this has more to do with my own personal preferences when it comes to “artistry” and not so much to do with “presentation”. Some thinks his presentation is top notch. Others don’t.

Not sure how to better explain what I feel but it’s like he understands the music but can’t quite get himself into it and fully express the music through his movements. It’s like he doesn’t really feel it on an emotional level but rather on an intellectual level. It's like he thinks too much. Don't think just do, just feel. If that makes any sense?

Presentation wise I do think he needs more speed and flow. He needs to attack his programs and he can do that without losing his softness. Johnny has a nice lyrical style that sometimes is a tad juniorish, but that will evidently change as he mature. He has nice basic skills and jumping technique.

I admit my knowledge of the new CoP system is limited so I can’t really add anything slightly intelligent about presentation marks vs. technical merits.

Joesitz...

Andrommica - Those factors which the presentation mark in Cop count are: basic skill - his jump tehniqwue is perfect (true edges in entering, good position in the air, and perfect edge and flow out of the jump. His spins positions are second to none.

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Thank you! I just started to understand the old system and now they changed. Will take me ages to understand the new one

My knowledge is limited in comparison to most of you in here, but I tend to go with my gut feeling. Might explain things

Hockeyfan...

One of the advantages of recuperating from surgery or an injury is the ability to start afresh and undo bad habits. Plushenko has been overcompensating for his knee all year. Taking time off will allow him to unlearn "bad" muscle memory and to reestablish basic technique. Plus, he'll be able to do upper body and abdominal work during his recuperation, which should help his quad attempts and protect his back.

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Couldn't agree more with you on this. He needs to see it as a opportuniy, not a punishment.

It's so sad that athletes that young has to deal with heavy injuries and risk cripple themselves. Just look at Yagudin, it's a sad case. I don't wish Plushenko a similar fate.

Andromica - I think you understand what pleases you and that's what it should be. I see Plushenko as one who mugs the audiences and Joubert as the great stoneface. (I have hope for Joubert to get a more formidable style but I think Plushenko has reached his personal style.) But that's me. That's what I see. both those skaters are very seasoned and have been competiting in seniors for some time.

You seem to come down hard on the youngest kid in the Men's division. Is it more than just the confusing difference between artistry and presentation?

BTW, How are you with Lindemann and Lambiel. Both of whom are ranked higher than Johnny in world competition. There is also a big favorite of mine, Klimkin. I see Klimkin and Lambiel as the best in artistry in Men's figure skating. But again, that's me! And you don't have to agree with me. You may like whomever you please. It's what presentation is all about. Even the judges will admit it is the subjective part of figure skating.

Cheers - Joe

I am a big fan of Plushenko's but occasionally even I wondered if his knee injury was really serious, considering how well he has skated all season. However, after thinking more about it I think the injury is real and serious. The problem is that Plushenko can still do the jumps so it is hard for him to sit down and let it rest, or have surgery when he does not absolutely have to. A voice of wisdom says he should sacrifice the short term gain for the big prize in the long term. However, the lure of short term gain and the elusive nature of any future prize can tilt the balance in going for what is available now. If he is really going to have surgery, - always a risky proposition- I really hope he will be able to skate well/better later.

Vash