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Thread: COP and speed

  1. #1
    mpal2
    Guest

    COP and speed


    Mathman's speed topic raised a question I have on the Code of Points.

    From what I remember, the 6.0 judging looks at fast vs slow speed as well as the control and ability to vary speed in the scoring. I don't have the list of the presentation components handy so someone please feel free to correct me or list the exact wording.

    Under the Code of Points, they use the following criteria for Skating Skills.
    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Definition: Methods used by a skater/couple to create movement over the ice surface.
    Purpose: To reward efficiency of movement in relation to speed, flow and quality of
    edge.
    Criteria:
     Overall skating quality
     Multi directional skating
     Speed and power
     Cleanness and sureness of edges (steps & edges Ice Dancing)
     Glide and flow
     Depth and quality of edges (Ice Dancing)
     Balance in ability of partner (Ice Dancing and Pair Skating)[/quote]

    Does this mean that variance in speed is out the window and all skaters must become speed skaters? Or do they take variance of speed into account under the category of Transitions?

    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Definition: Skating steps/elements linking program highlights.
    Purpose: To reward different steps, movements and elements linking and enhancing the
    program highlights so they become part of the program not just isolated
    elements.
    Criteria:
     Difficulty and quality of steps linking elements.
     Creativity and originality of steps linking elements (these are in
    Choreography for Ice Dance)
     Originality and difficulty of entrances and exits of elements
     Pattern (Ice Dancing)
     Balance of workload between partners (Ice Dancing)
     Difficulty and variety of dance footwork, holds and linking movements
    (Ice Dancing)[/quote]

    Some footwork and linking steps will reduce the speed of the skater.


    I don't like the concept of figure skating turning into a speed contest. They already have that lone skill covered elsewhere. The joys of really fast crossovers otherwise known as speed skating.

  2. #2
    thvudragon
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    Variation of Speed is under the Performance/Execution catagory in presentatin, so it is still judged.

    TV

  3. #3
    mpal2
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    Thank you thvu,

    I missed that when I was going through the list.

  4. #4
    Joesitz
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    What about a Stop Watch to test the speed of the skater? Forget the music, just speed skate.

    Joe

  5. #5
    mpal2
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    Joe,

    One of the reasons why I asked the question is because they seem to be headed that way. People complain that Michelle's programs aren't as full of choreography anymore and the transitions have gotten easier. But the judges pretty much let her know she had to dump it and go for speed. I don't blame her for dumping the choreography, but I'd rather see some harder transititions again and lose a little speed for the sake of the program.

  6. #6
    Joesitz
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    MPal - It's off-season again, and it has become a tradition in Golden Skate to nit-pick MK to get through the summer months.

    However, what you said is true. MK's (as well as IS) did not have the beautiful transitions they had, say in EOE and it could be for the sake of speed.

    (Forget the music and get more short track into the routine.)

    If you noticed, IS did less transitions in Traviata, and consequently,did more flow over the ice. First time I really, really, liked her.

    IMO, Transitions are relative. If it clutters up the routine and kills the flow then it kills me. If, however, it is used properly and given the requisite speed, it'll bowl me over.

    MK's Aranjez is a work of art, imo, but I can understand those posters who see otherwise.

    Joe



  7. #7
    mpal2
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    Joe,

    I wasn't specifically referring to GS when I mentioned people's complaints about MK's choreography. I see it everywhere. If you head over to the MKF, you'll see even more of it. I think people are in mourning over the loss.

    I do agree that too much unnecesary choreography clutters a program. I think it's interesting that while MK and IS have moved to fewer transitions, SH has seemed to move in the direction of more. I do tend to like more transitions than the top skaters are using today, but SH's seemed cluttered to me. I wonder why Robin chose to go that direction?

  8. #8
    Joesitz
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    mpal - I think Robin was trying to bring out the intricate steps of the <em>Ballet, La Bayadere</em>. I think that's a mistake. Ballet is ballet and figure skating is figure skating. They only meet in form, imo.

    Joe

  9. #9
    mpal2
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    Joe,

    You're probably right. That brings another subject to mind, but I'll start a new topic if it bugs me enough.

    Thanks!

  10. #10
    rgirl181
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>IMO, Transitions are relative. If it clutters up the routine and kills the flow then it kills me. If, however, it is used properly and given the requisite speed, it'll bowl me over.[/quote] Joe, ITA. I love figure skaters with great speed, but not speed skaters who figure skate and do jumps, if you get my distinction. I think of skaters such as Gordeeva and Grinkov, Shen and Zhao, Kurt Browning, Ilia Kulik, Oksana Baiul (from '94 to '96), Irina with her best choreography, Lucinda Ruh, and Grishuk and Platov and Anissina and Peizerat with their best choreography, among others. I love to see skaters who have great underlying speed and power, which they can rev up when it's appropriate or slow down when it's right for the choreography to skate at slower speeds. For me, I love skaters have the ability to skate fast with deep soft knees and a wide stance on their crossovers so they can build up great speed in a few strokes as opposed to crossovers with not as much bend to the knees and a narrower stance, which requires more smaller strokes to build up speed. For me, the former seems to allow the skater to use speed any way he needed to throughout the program. IMO, Brain Boitano, when he was at his best, is a great example. For me it's just a personal preference.

    Joe you mentioned a stopwatch, but I was thinking of another way to measure speed. For a stopwatch, you'd need to have a equal distance for the skater's to cover, say 100 meters, so you could compare them. If you use a radar gun, you could measure the skater's speed say four times a minute during the SP and LP. You would then have 10 measurments for the SP and 16 measurements for the LP, which they could then use to calculate an average and incorporate that into the COP. Skater A with an average speed of 12mph could be compared to Skater Be with an average speed of 15mph--or I guess they would use kilometers per hour Maybe it would be relevant, maybe not. The downside might be that skaters would just try to skate fast, but perhaps not if the average speed was given equeal weight in the COP relative to other elements such as:
    • Cleanness and sureness of edges
    • Glide and flow
    • Difficulty and quality of steps linking elements.
    • Creativity and originality of steps linking elements
    • Originality and difficulty of entrances and exits of elements
    • Carriage
    • Style
    • Body alignment
    • Variation of speed
    • Harmonious composition of the program
    • Conformity of elements, steps and movements to the music
    • Originality, difficulty and variety of program pattern
    • Distribution of highlights
    • Utilization of space and ice surface
    • Easy movement and sureness in time to the music
    • Finesse, and nuances of the musical phrases
    • Expression of the music’s style and character
    • Maintaining the character and style of the music throughout the
    entire program

    I'd be interested to see what the results of average speed were using a radar gun (I wish they didn't call it "gun" though, lol) just on a trial basis that didn't apply to the results. Seeing skaters in person one is usually immediately struck by those skaters with great speed, but at least I would find it interesting to be able to compare them using an objective measurement.
    Rgirl

  11. #11
    Ladskater
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    I don't agree. Jeff Buttles' program was probably one of the most challenging and well choreographed programs of the season - Debbi Wilkes called it "complicated" which is a complement in the skating world. Speed is important in skating, but also a well choreographed program is important too. Figure skaters are supposed to have both elements in their programs - speed and good choreography. They should be able to move quickly from one element to the next. However, this does not mean they are short track speed skaters. If that is they case, they might just as well hang up their figure skates and head for the speed skating rink.


    Ladskater

  12. #12
    berthes ghost
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    "I think Robin was trying to bring out the intricate steps of the Ballet, La Bayadere. "

    Maybe, but her SP was even more cluttered with applied movements. I just think that they were trying to say "I'm a champion, look at how complicated I can skate!". Or maybe they were trying to draw attention away from her no longer consistant triples.

  13. #13
    Joesitz
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    rGirl - Your list of elements that the CoP will have to deal with kinda overrides the whole questions of <em>speed</em> which we agree is relative to the program.

    <span style="text-decoration:underline">Things that throw me off on speed:</span>

    1. Fast forward crossovers into a mohawk then holding the backoutside edge interminably to do a lutz. Big deal! A lutz cannot be done without speed, imo, and most jumps the same.

    2. Exaggerated speedy cut backs to impress the judges/audiences means no choreography to me.

    <span style="text-decoration:underline">Things that impress me with relative speed:</span>

    1. Surya beginning a program with a double axel from practically a standstill - not easy!

    2. Yuka Sato speeding along the ice flowing from element to element and one hardly notices the tremendous speed she is using.

    Yes, let's have speed! but let's vary it to the choreography (if there is any choreography).

    Joe


  14. #14
    mpal2
    Guest

    Re: COP and speed


    Berthes,

    If they hadn't given Sarah such complicated and cluttered choreography, maybe she would have had time to work on those triples. :lol:

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