Best way to give World Championships spots?

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 27, 2015

Should it be the best skaters in the World based on the seasons results and scores who compete? Or ....Should it be the way it is now where the countries compete for spots and send their best qualified skaters. Hmm....I'd like to see the best in the world more but I can see the fun and merit behind including more countries even if their skater may not be competive in the final standings. Is it better as a contest for the best in the world or a simply a contest for the world?

I guess I'm neutral. Can anyone save me and show me the way?

karne · Jan 27, 2015

The system now is fine - and I am saying this firmly as someone whose skater has missed out by one placement.

If you start allowing "extras" for the big countries, then Worlds will be overrun by them. And I can only imagine the complaints when the whole top six, for example, at Worlds in ladies is Russian - or in the men, Japanese...And where does that leave the little countries then? Kicked out with even less incentive to develop their already underfunded and underresourced skating programs.

And let's not even get started on the situation it would cause with ranking points.

I hear this argument every year - usually, because someone's favourite has been left at home.

StitchMonkey · Jan 27, 2015

I would not mind some adjustments to how many can attend and allowing for more than three. I would however mind if that change did not also adjust the rules on how countries get multiple slots. If Russia had 5 skaters, it would be hard for other countries to get the placements needed to get three spots.

If we allowed for more skaters from each country, we would need to change it to something like the three countries with the highest placements gets three spots regardless if that total is 8 or 18, top combined get three spots.

s_parks · Jan 27, 2015

Haha, well, what you think is ultimately up to you. While it would be more suspenseful and seems more "fair" to have the best go to worlds regardless of nationality, I don't think it's, well, good for the sport. There have been some surprisingly great skates and results from more obscure skaters whom nobody would have predicted to medal or place that well(Denis in 2013 comes to mind). It would be a shame to potentially miss out on some unexpectedly great skates.

aa456 · Jan 27, 2015

I prefer it the way it is now, otherwise we would only have skaters for Russia/USA/Japan in the top bracket all the time and smaller/newer federations may lose interest. We do get to see the best in a given season at the GPF though, and I wouldn't mind if they expanded that to top 8 instead of top 6.

tulosai · Jan 27, 2015

It's a really rough situation IMO, but really I think it should be the best skaters as determined by objective criterion, and all this 'country' nonsense should go away. Pairs and dance teams should then be allowed to form and compete regardless of nationality, which would be a nice perk. I do not buy the argument that skaters from less well known FS countries would just disappear then, though I suppose the only way to conclusively see that would be to try a different system. If anything though I think the cream from all countries could rise moreso than now where smaller federations are actually IMO held down. There was a nice comparison to tennis in a thread not long ago that I found extremely compelling on this and other points- including the idea that this could be a way to raise skating's popularity (though the only way to conclusively figure that out either would be to try it).

ETA- I think a good example is Yuna Kim in terms of 'cream rising' even in the current system. Korea was a nothing fed before her, and it's not like they slowly built for years, gaining more and more momentum which enabled her to do what she did. It was more like BOOM YUNA KIM. And sure now that she did her thing, Korea is a bigger FS power at least in women's, than it was, but really a Yuna could come from almost any developed nation if she could come from Korea.

I guess that at the end of the day, and perhaps overly simply, I think if you are tuning into a competition where the best in the world are supposed to be determined, the best in the world should all be there. If 8 of the best are from Russia, let them come.

noskates · Jan 27, 2015

The system for choosing participants is fine in my opinion.

andromache · Jan 27, 2015

tulosai said:
It's a really rough situation IMO, but really I think it should be the best skaters as determined by objective criterion, and all this 'country' nonsense should go away. Pairs and dance teams should then be allowed to form and compete regardless of nationality, which would be a nice perk. I do not buy the argument that skaters from less well known FS countries would just disappear then, though I suppose the only way to conclusively see that would be to try a different system. If anything though I think the cream from all countries could rise moreso than now where smaller federations are actually IMO held down. There was a nice comparison to tennis in a thread not long ago that I found extremely compelling on this and other points- including the idea that this could be a way to raise skating's popularity (though the only way to conclusively figure that out either would be to try it).

If we do away with the country's involvement in figure skating, how will skaters receive support/funding if not from their federations?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea for skaters to compete for themselves rather than for their countries, but I think that makes it harder for excellent skaters who come from countries where figure skating is very expensive and not at all financially lucrative, due to the unpopularity of the sport. Then again, I'm not familiar with how that works in tennis.

RABID · Jan 27, 2015

StitchMonkey said:
I would not mind some adjustments to how many can attend and allowing for more than three. I would however mind if that change did not also adjust the rules on how countries get multiple slots. If Russia had 5 skaters, it would be hard for other countries to get the placements needed to get three spots.

If we allowed for more skaters from each country, we would need to change it to something like the three countries with the highest placements gets three spots regardless if that total is 8 or 18, top combined get three spots.

I wouldn't mind the stronger countries being allowed to send more skaters if the rankings were there and as a matter a fact smaller countries being denied IF their skaters failed to meet an minimum standard. So you have more contestants skating SP. No big deal as long as the cut for the FP remains the same. Time wise what does that mean? Two extra hours?

drivingmissdaisy · Jan 27, 2015

It shouldn't change. It gives athletes opportunities to gain experience that may help them coach athletes later. I'm sure some of Yuna's coaches in South Korea had World or Olympic experience themselves and were able to pass on their knowledge to her. Also, Yao Bin was motivated to become a great coach in part based on his experiences competing at the highest level. If only four or five countries were represented at Worlds it would remain that way.

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 28, 2015

noskates said:
The system for choosing participants is fine in my opinion.

I don't disagree and in fact I prefer WC's to the Olympics in almost every way. The way I see it though is that under the current system what we have is more or less a competition where the geography is more at play than the level of figure skating on hand in any given year. Sure that's fine but could there maybe be a system in place where the top 10 in any given year would be allowed to compete and at least one skater from each federation that has a skater achieve the minimal technical requirements. As lame as golf can be the cut they use is not a bad system and cutting the lowest after the SP wouldn't bother me in the least.

*I think the only real issue with cutting skaters after the SP is that the judging might not ever be fair enough to support this system. By that I mean when lower ranked skaters kill it(skate well)...they are more likely to just improve their personal best scores as opposed to being scored fairly against competitors who skate later in the event. Still...this is a judging concern and should be addressed separately from the WC process...at least IMO.

Here is the real hitch for me under the current rules. I don't like that last seasons results determine the layout of the field in the following season. I'd much rather have the current top competitors of that particular year dueling it out with exemptions(at least one) for each nation that has a skater who can qualify. I guess I would prefer a hybrid system where geography and talent decide the World Champion. YMMV.

Kinga · Jan 28, 2015

Can you imagine life without drama "who will get the Worlds spots"?

. I think it is exciting that skaters have to compete nationally/meet the federation critiria in order to go to Worlds/Europeans/4CC. It is also good for their development and mental toughness, they really have to bring their A game when it counts.

chairmanmao · Jan 28, 2015

Lipnitskaya being unable to defend her Euro title is just beyond incomprehensible. I am beyond stunned how a skater of her caliber and popularity having to sit out the season all because she had a bad National's perfornance. She is number two in the World, an Olympic Gold Medalist, the European Champion and the World Silver medallist. In what other discipline could someone of this level be sideline? I'm guessing a more obscure sport than figure skating.

Krunchii · Jan 28, 2015

chairmanmao said:
Lipnitskaya being unable to defend her Euro title is just beyond incomprehensible. I am beyond stunned how a skater of her caliber and popularity having to sit out the season all because she had a bad National's perfornance. She is number two in the World, an Olympic Gold Medalist, the European Champion and the World Silver medallist. In what other discipline could someone of this level be sideline? I'm guessing a more obscure sport than figure skating.

She's barely scraped by this entire season with her LP, she hasn't skated a clean one at all, if you look at the current Euros team, what does Yulia's performances this season have over any of them? Eliza and Elena have been trading places on every podium and Anna has put out some clean programs and has beaten Yulia twice this season, why would the Russian fed choose her when they have all these other girls who are ready?

leolion11 · Jan 28, 2015

Krunchii said:
She's barely scraped by this entire season with her LP, she hasn't skated a clean one at all, if you look at the current Euros team, what does Yulia's performances this season have over any of them? Eliza and Elena have been trading places on every podium and Anna has put out some clean programs and has beaten Yulia twice this season, why would the Russian fed choose her when they have all these other girls who are ready?

Yeah I must say it's pretty hard to justify sending her to Euros and Worlds over Elena, Liza, and Anna who have all done better than her this season.

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 28, 2015

Yeah I must say it's pretty hard to justify sending her to Euros and Worlds over Elena, Liza, and Anna who have all done better than her this season.

I think we can all agree on that and I think Worlds is a different beast than Euros TBH. Like I said in the OP I'm fairly neutral on the current rules for qualifying to WC's and don't even disagree but a part of me is a bit torn though. I can also see a case for the top ten skaters in any given season a chance to compete at Worlds. I think this is achievable without shafting smaller countries.

What's funny is Lipnitskaya was the farthest thing from my mind when I started this thread. I noticed this discussion on another thread starting up again and just wanted to prevent that one from being derailed.

However....you have to admit that Lip is an interesting case to consider because even without Euros she will likely be around top 10-15 ranked on the season. Someone like her could sit in that later spot and if clean actually compete for a medal. Therefore raising the overall level of competition.

I don't mind the system but a little tweaking to raise the standard of competition could be an interesting thing.

I wouldn't want to see it based on WR because then you'd see more people skipping the GP and simply doing Nationals and Worlds but.......wouldn't that free up spots on the GP for skaters from "little countries"?

Skater Boy · Jan 28, 2015

And furthermore popularity has nothing to do with it. What is interesting or maybe the point - it is sad, awkward, unusual, etc. that Julia does not get to defend her Euro title or world silver medal - regardless of her poor year - (though making the GPF in a bad year hmmm, not to shabby lol).

creaturelover · Jan 28, 2015

chairmanmao said:
Lipnitskaya being unable to defend her Euro title is just beyond incomprehensible. I am beyond stunned how a skater of her caliber and popularity having to sit out the season all because she had a bad National's perfornance. She is number two in the World, an Olympic Gold Medalist, the European Champion and the World Silver medallist. In what other discipline could someone of this level be sideline? I'm guessing a more obscure sport than figure skating.

Unfortuantly this season she hasn't been able to deliver and it is not fair that the likes of Anna, Elena or Liza be left off the team to suit Yulia, despite the fact she is the reigning silver medalist. Don't worry, Yulia will be back with a force next season!

Violetti · Jan 28, 2015

I find odd this "Julia does not get to defend her Euro title" as we have three high level synchro teams in Finland and it has happened more than once that the team which won will not get to defend their title next year, only two can go and maybe that is why their are so very good teams. The two best teams of that year will go and that's it. Julia has clearly shown that she cannot be depended upon this season and there are better ones this time in Russia. IMO she needs time for herself and not to be in the spotlight all the time and now she can get that.

I think the current system of choosing the skaters for worlds is fine. But there could be another competition for the best of the world, perhaps only 20 best skaters.

Jammers · Jan 28, 2015

Yulia got in just under the wire and got to go to the Olympics before she grew and her jumps left her because that technique wasn't going to get her through another growth spurt.

Best way to give World Championships spots?

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

StitchMonkey

s_parks

aa456

tulosai

noskates

andromache

RABID

drivingmissdaisy

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Kinga

chairmanmao

Krunchii

leolion11

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Skater Boy

creaturelover

Violetti

Jammers

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