Help: Toe Loops and Salchows

So yeah, it's been a long time since I posted again in this forums since I'm a beginner adult skater. So far still having fun however I need help on these jumps:

Note: I am a clockwise (CW) skater. I always had a hint that i am a clockwise skater but it was not up until i started waltz jumps that i really had concluded it.

On Toe Loops

I know that jumps have multiple ways of entering into them and entering toe loops is usually through inside three turn. Sadly my inside 3s are not yet that good and i still need to practice. My fellow skater told me i can do a mohawk then change foot to an outside edge before toeing in with the other foot. I can do that just fine but when I start using the toe pick my body goes all confused and does not know what to do. How do you vault yourself up? do you hit your toe pick with so much pressure to vault up? i keep hitting the ice with it but i cant feel any momentum / power to vault me up. I hope that make sense. Help pls... how do you really use that pick to vault you up?

On Salchows

"Three turn then jump" or "It's a three turn and a waltz"
That is what i hear from my fellow skaters and my coach. I've even checked online tutorial videos to get the jump. I can do the three turn then swing my free leg around me, i just cant find that sweet timing where I would need to jump. So far all i can do with this jump is 3 turn then swing free leg around then stop... help!!

This isn't all that descriptive of a problem and I'd really rather see video to give you advice, but my sneaky supsicion straight off with both is a checking problem, ie you are not checking as you are picking in and changing your weight to the picking foot on the toe loop and you aren't checking the three turn on the Sal.

As for picking on the toe loop, you do not want to hit the toepick into the ice with a lot of pressure in order to vault into the air. That's the technique error you should be actively avoiding! You want to reach back with a very straight, extended picking leg and pointed toe, keeping it very low to the ice, then firmly place (not bang) the toepick into the ice and pull yourself back with it, lifting the other foot as it approaches the picking foot. The momentum from the edge you're gliding on should translate into some height and distance as you lift the free foot off the ice and take off from the toepick of the picking foot.
As an exercise--and this is for a CW jumper--try standing next to the boards with your left hip against the boards and assume the picking position for a toe loop (for a CW skater, that's right arm in front, left arm back, and right foot extended behind you with toepick in the ice and your picking foot touching the boards. You can hold onto the boards with your left hand. Make sure your weight is on the heel of your non-picking foot and that your back is straight and not rounded. Now, pull yourself back with your picking leg until your skating foot crosses to the right of the picking foot, which is still in the ice. As the skating foot crosses the picking foot, turn it forward (technically a left back outside 3-turn) so you now face the direction of travel. This is a walk through of the picking and takeoff process. If you were to actually do the toe loop jump, you would lift the skating foot just before it actually crossed the picking foot and you would turn that landing side foot and hip (in your case the left) forward in the air--ending up in the same position as a waltz jump once you were up--and then another half turn to land backward. On the takeoff and in the air, you want to scissor your legs to get forward or backward, never swing a leg around like you would do to go into a spin.

As for the salchow, don't jump with your free leg; jump with your skating leg. The free leg needs to cooperate and help in the timing of the jump, but it is NOT what's supposed to lift you into the air. You need to hold the right back inside edge--whether it's from a 3-turn or a mohawk-- with your right arm in front of you and left arm back, then bend your right knee and ankle, pressing the middle of the blade into the ice to deepen the edge. As you bend and press into the ice, start releasing your free arm and leg, so that by the time you actually jump off the right foot (pointing the toes of your takeoff foot hard on takeoff to give you height), your free foot is next to the takeoff foot and your hips and shoulders are squared. Because the curve of your edge automatically deepens as you bend your knee and ankle and press it into the ice, you will find that you rotate more than on a waltz jump takeoff without even trying. If you start your 3-turn or mohawk on a line facing 12:00, exit the 3-turn or mohawk facing 6:00, then bend and deepen your edge right before takeoff, you will be facing 9:00 at the moment you leave the ice (for CCW skaters, you'll be facing 3:00). You will do 3/4 turn in the air and land backwards (facing 6:00).

msskater93;
Thanks for the info. Maybe it's really a checking problem. I'll try to get myself a video of me doing / attempting the jump so that you can see what i'm doing.

vlaurend:
Wow! this is a lot of help. I'll try doing what you recommended. And as from your description on the picking, what i understand is that banging with the toepick wont help but rather proper firm placement will. This clarified a lot. I've read also somewhere sometime earlier that using the toe pick is like a pole vault... I will be trying this on the next skating session.

I've decided to focus on the toe loop first and then work on my salchows when i feel confident with the toeloops.. Thanks for the great feedback people.

Glad to help! I remember being confused by these things when I was first learning those jumps, too! BTW, here's a video of the toe loop takeoff exercise I described, except that the skater actually lifts the non-picking foot off the ice like an actual toe loop takeoff. Can you see how low to the ice he holds his picking foot and how he just places it firmly into the ice and pulls himself back with it instead of banging it into the ice? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcsRkGxHJ5s It's almost like he's doing a right back outside pivot. Practicing left back outside pivots (since you are a CW skater) will help give you the feeling of staying backward as you take off from the toe instead of pivoting forward on the toe and doing a toe waltz jump (which is incorrect).

P.S. I agree with the comment about checking as well. whether you set up your toeloop or salchow takeoff from a 3-turn or a mohawk, you want to feel like you are going forward with control, then backward with control, then through and up. You should never feel like the takeoff edge is swinging you *around*. Keeping your right arm in front of you for the takeoff of both of these jumps also helps (left arm for CCW skaters).

vlaurend:
This is a helpful video! can't wait to try this over the weekends... thanks very much!

One more thing I've noticed (that you have pointed out)

vlaurend said:

assume the picking position for a toe loop (for a CW skater, that's right arm in front, left arm back...

Click to expand...

I've been doing left arm in front and right arm on the back. Maybe this arm position also contributes on my awkward feeling of executing the jump. I've also noticed this on the video (Skater was a ccw skater so it's logical that his arms are reversed to mine). Also that picking action, i think i get a hang of it now.. i need to try this on the ice!!!! *feeling pumped*

For now i'll stick with off-ice toes and sals..

ilyden25 said:

vlaurend:
This is a helpful video! can't wait to try this over the weekends... thanks very much!

One more thing I've noticed (that you have pointed out)



I've been doing left arm in front and right arm on the back. Maybe this arm position also contributes on my awkward feeling of executing the jump. I've also noticed this on the video (Skater was a ccw skater so it's logical that his arms are reversed to mine). Also that picking action, i think i get a hang of it now.. i need to try this on the ice!!!! *feeling pumped*

For now i'll stick with off-ice toes and sals..

Click to expand...

Oh yes, If you have your picking side arm back (your right) and skating side arm forward on the takeoff edge, that will get you into all sorts of trouble, LOL! It is the exact opposite of proper "checking" of the shoulders and will make it extremely difficult to control your takeoff, air position and landing. A famous coach once explained something to me that has stuck ever since: "Open the door." As you reach back to pick for the toeloop, reach forward with your picking side arm just like you're going to use it to open a door that is in front of you and a little on the other side of your body. Imagine the door opens toward you and as you leave the ice, you pull the door towards you, bringing that arm in.

Try re-watching that video a few times using a hand-held mirror in front of your computer screen so you can watch it in the mirror and see how it will look when done by a CW skater. And here's a good example of that right arm on a toeloop takeoff by a CW skater. In fact, the best example is after he lands the quad toeloop and checks really hard before taking off on the triple toeloop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUldWQuk0TE

Here is CW skater Alissa Czisny also showing a good right arm forward check before her triple lutz and before the triple toeloop she does right after it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hY4GwLcnaY

You'll also see that Alissa (a much younger version of Alissa!) keeps her right arm (takeoff side) checked in front of her as she is about to take off on the salchow, right here: http://youtu.be/l8OLyiFslCw?t=2m30s

OHHHHH Johnny's Quad Toe Triple Toe Double loop combination is so pleasing to the eyes!
Nice vids nice vids! Feeling more pumped!! i need to get back to the ice soon! Cant wait till saturday!

Thanks vlaurend

I've tried them! toe loop and salchow but was not able to jump it... at least i can do the toe picking action and the pivot... More practice needed...

I also fell... and I fell hard... but it's part of the learning process..

Side story (off-topic):
I got reprimanded by a coach at the rink for jumping CW.. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... She says it's not the "proper" way... T_T makes me kinda sad and annoyed... Well im the only adult CW skater at the rink taking formal lessons... so whenever i try jumps and spins i always go the other way... What really annoyed me is she keep saying that the "proper" way to jump is CCW... she even asked me to do waltz CCW hahah... Grrr her! *lol this has been converted into a rant thread...* hahahah

ilyden25 said:

I've tried them! toe loop and salchow but was not able to jump it... at least i can do the toe picking action and the pivot... More practice needed...

I also fell... and I fell hard... but it's part of the learning process..

Side story (off-topic):
I got reprimanded by a coach at the rink for jumping CW.. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... She says it's not the "proper" way... T_T makes me kinda sad and annoyed... Well im the only adult CW skater at the rink taking formal lessons... so whenever i try jumps and spins i always go the other way... What really annoyed me is she keep saying that the "proper" way to jump is CCW... she even asked me to do waltz CCW hahah... Grrr her! *lol this has been converted into a rant thread...* hahahah

Click to expand...

Sounds like the by-gone era when left-handers were forced to write with their right hand...

I don't recall where I heard it from (can't verify it's truth), but what I heard was that Satoko Miyahara was naturally a CW skater, but was forced to learn CCW jumps/spins due to crowded conditions at her rink. Now she jumps CCW, but have you seen how lovely her CCW-to-CW spins are?

cl2 said:

I don't recall where I heard it from (can't verify it's truth), but what I heard was that Satoko Miyahara was naturally a CW skater, but was forced to learn CCW jumps/spins due to crowded conditions at her rink. Now she jumps CCW, but have you seen how lovely her CCW-to-CW spins are?

Click to expand...

I've watched Satoko Miyahara's CCW to CW spin... it was beautiful.. and very rare..

As for the Toe-Loop and Salchows I think i get a hang of the picking (toeloop) and a little of the swinging of the free leg around (salchow) the only thing that stops me is "actually jumping off the ice"... im still scared hahaha.. need to practice more.

Life's too short to be with a coach who makes you jump and spin against your natural direction, IMHO. Sorry, but if your coach is so rigid about something that has been accepted in the figure skating world for a long time now, what else is he/she rigid about? There is no one way that is right for every skater, so you might want to keep your eyes open for a coach who is more open minded and open to new ideas! I'm so sorry you had a bad fall. To get used to jumping and landing safely, just practice jumping and landing on two feet. Don't even worry about the rotation part at first. The most important thing to remember is to point the toes of the takeoff foot on takeoff and point the toes of the landing foot on landing. The toepick should always be the last thing to leave the ice and first thing to contact the ice. If you jump and land on both feet, you can just point them as you take off and keep them both pointed for the landing.