Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

SashaFans

This topic was inspired by a topic on SashaFans. Anyone that has ever lurked on that board knows that the majority of the people don't like Michelle because she has beaten Sasha so many times. Michelle can do nothing right according to them. Basically, this is an interesting discussion but a non-issue born of spite. Michelle isn't getting special treatment. Sasha and the other skaters don't have to do the GP series if they don't want to.

Re: SashaFans

Marcijack - Please bear in mind that many of MK's fans also like Sasha (I am one). I think the question did not carry overtones. The original poster was simply looking for a rationale answer about what s/he did not understand.

However, there was a time when what you said was quite true but I would not say from any particular fans. MK was indeed put on rack with dumb insinuations. But that has mostly stopped now, and any newer dumb remarks are easily spotted and ignored by all. GS is intended to be a forum that is a cut above the others.

Joe

To GP or Not

I'd actually think that a skater who doesn't participate in the GP series is at a disadvante. The GP competitions are relatively less important than the national championships/world, but allow the skater to get his/her programs out there, see how the judges react, and give the program an opportunity to gel. Practice is different from a performance. More competitions lead to a higher degree of comfort and a better ability perform a program effectively when the stakes are higher.

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Mathman: "Apache, you have an amazing knack for finding "negativity towards Michelle" to read about, on virtually every issue that comes up."

I know. I've been browsing other forums just to read news about Michelle. I've come across threads criticizing Michelle for her bad work ethic for skipping events as she pleases and that she is taking advantage of her special treatment. I don't need to argue with them about their personal attacks on her character, what's important is I now know she doesn't get special treatment and that's it all that matters.

Thartell, I totally agree with you. In any sport, if you don't compete enough you put yourself at a disadvantageous position. "Match play" is very important because it helps athletes gauge their performances vis-a-vis their competitors' and make adjustments and improvements. Also, match play helps the athletes build and maintain confidence during competitions. Once they stay out and return later, the confidence is missing because they simply don't know what to expect. Hence, I was worried for Michelle when she didn't compete enough last year. In fact, few expected her to win the Nationals precisely because of lack of match play. the moment they realized she managed to pull it off, they started to jump on the Michelle bandwagon again and put her as the hot favourite for worlds. Having that said, competing in too many competitions is dangerous too as it burns them out.

What really amuses me is before Worlds, many non-Michelle fans swore she wouldn't be able to win the world title because she competed only in a few competitions. When she won, they were so quick to say Michelle won because she had had enough rest and was fresh for the big one compared to others. Another amusing part is, before Worlds, they said she was too old to compete with the young ones. After she won, they said she had an unfair advantage of 10 years' experience over others. What happened to "old age"? I've decided not to engage with them in these discussions. It's a waste of my time and intelligence (sarcasm:lol: ).

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

I can vouch for Joesitz's statement "GS is intended to be a forum that is a cut above the others". The reason I keep coming back here is because I really find that this general forum is the "optimal" forum. Very well-balanced, hardly any bashing and gererally, everyone treats one another with respect here. Of course we can't expect to find the perfect forum. Another forum I love is of course MKF. Hey, it's a fan thing. I really hope one day GS will have 4000 members. It deserves it. Anyway 1200 is great already.

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Apache,
I was about to respond to a couple of posts, but you responded to some of them in a very classy way yourself. You will probably now be a big hero around GS for preventing yet another longwinded Rgirl post:lol: Even though it's still more than a few lines, you prevented a much longer one

The only thing I will add is this: Regarding the assertion that "many people" on SashaFans hate Michelle, indeed there are those who post on SashaFans who express dislike for Michelle and some who probably even "hate" Michelle, just as there are posters who "hate" some skater on every board. However, from what I've read, there are just as many posters at SashaFans who are fans of several skaters, including Michelle, in addition to Sasha, or if they are not fans of Michelle, they certainly respect her. SashaFans also has a clear "no bashing" policy regarding both skaters and other boards, just as GS has. Of course "no bashing" does not mean "no criticism" and just like the moderators on any board with a no bashing policy, I'm sure the moderators at SashaFans often face a fine line in trying to determine the difference between a "bash" and criticism. Even though I know there are times when true bashes get posted at SashaFans, I know the moderators there do try to remove them ASAP.

I hesitate to bring this next part up only because I hope it doesn't turn into a, "Well what about THIS post I saw at SashaFans?!" kind of thing, but I found the majority of the posts in the thread in question at SashaFans entitled, "Article: Kwan, Hughes, absent from Grand Prix roster" to be in favor of Michelle. I think it's important to look at these things in context and not judge the entire board by the relatively few posts in which Michelle is criticized. As BronzeisGolden said, not everyone is enamoured of Michelle and they do have a right to express their opinions. On this thread at SashaFans, those few posters who tried to say or imply negative things about Michelle were quickly rebuffed by several other posters, which people can read for themselves at
www.sashafans.com/forum/s...genumber=1

There is also presently a thread at SashaFans entitled "Michelle Kwan World," which said, "Hey everyone! please come visit the Michelle Kwan World! It is a very nice message board and its awesome! hehe! I hope to see you there!" All responses to this post were positive. If you go to the link below, you will see in the original poster's signature that she is a big fan of Michelle, Tara, and Sasha.
www.sashafans.com/forum/s...eadid=4020
Rgirl

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Yes she is, and why not. Michelle Kwan brought dignity and respect back to figure skating after Nancy/Tonya nearly ruined it for life. She came to us when we needed it the most and look what she has done for skating. If they treat her different, it is because she EARNED their respect and love for just being the person she is. Michelle is love and respected by all who know her. She deserves something in return for doing so much for the sport of Figure Skating.

diamond

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I've decided not to engage with them in these discussions.[/quote]

Apache, but are you engaging with them in an indirect conversion/ discussion?

Mathman, ITA with you . IIRC you observed something about a year ago. Someone post a thread about "Why do people hate so and so...." Sure enough, it was like a magnet, that attracted the haters of so and so. "They flew in with the broomsticks and told us in vivid details why they hate so and so..." (per Uberprofessor Herr Doktor Mann)

I wonder how this thread will develop.

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Well, I'll confess to being annoyed by Michelle Kwan's decision not to compete in the Grand Prix circuit. I realize it's not required, but I still consider it to be part of the figure skating "season." I think that, if healthy, she should either skate for the entire season or not skate at all. It seems unfair that she should skip the GP and then just show up to pick up some more world and national titles. I see that as the same kind of mentality that has caused the Four Continents to become so degraded in prestige - top skaters don't bother to show up. That undermines the importance of the entire event. Not that Michelle Kwan is destroying the GP by not showing up - but if other top skaters follow this trend, it could.

All ye Richard Strauss fans

Sure enough, before I can say
Ein Heldenleben...., it happened.

Re: All ye Richard Strauss fans

Somewhere in this country there has got to be an equine mortuary that is missing its customers......For the sake of peace and tranquility, do we have to rehash this topic again? I'm about at the point that I wish Sasha, Michelle, Sarah, and Irina would all retire together and put an end to this whole GP-yes-or-no/Preferential treatment-yes-or-no scafuffle.

sigh.......it's definitely the off-season.

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

This was the longwinded post I didn't think I had to write after I read Apache's responses to some of the posters who doubted his motives for asking his question about Michelle. But it seems a few people are determined to see Apache in a negative light no matter what he says. I know what I say won't change anybody's opinion. In fact, Apache being defended by Rgirl might make some people think, "Well then he <strong>must</strong> be antiMichelle!":lol: But I am in complete agreement with Joe re: <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think [Apache's] question did not carry overtones. The original poster was simply looking for a rational answer about what s/he did not understand.[/quote] Well said, Joe. In fact, this is the kind of response that I think helps promote better relations and understanding on the forum. Unfortunately I'm sure what I am about to say is not going to promote better relations and understanding, but I have a real problem with the way some people are attacking ApacheApache.

I just don't understand the negative attitude some posters have expressed towards Apache. Apache said <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Are skaters allowed to skip events as they please like what Michelle is doing? I would hate the idea that Michelle is given the exception by the federation. No matter how much I love her and how much she has given to the sport, I don't think it's fair for Michelle to be given the special treatment. I ask this question because I have read so much negativity towards Michelle on this issue. Can someone please clarify?[/quote] Maybe the question could have been worded better, but what bothers me is that we have a situation where someone asking a perfectly legitimate question about Michelle is assumed by some GS posters to be stirring up trouble by saying that Michelle is indeed being given preferential treatment and that this is something Apache does often. I find this behavior disheartening. As Joe said, GS strives to be a cut above. I can understand if people were unclear about the way Apache worded his question, but why assume he is saying something against Michelle? Why not first post something like, "I find your wording unclear. It sounds to me like you think Michelle <strong>is</strong> being given preferential treatment. Where did you read all this 'negativity' because I haven't seen it on GS? If I'm mistaken and you're just asking the question because you truly don't know, perhaps you could clarify why you're asking it." Why not give the benefit of the doubt until one has more information?

As for the notion expressed by Eltamina that Apache's threads work like "magnets" attracting Michelle-haters (I know you didn't say Michelle; you said "so and so"), I could not disagree more with the idea that the poster who starts a thread with a legitimate question is responsible for the kind of responses it gets. If I felt Apache intentionally asked, "Why do people hate Michelle?" knowing that a bunch of Michelle-haters would come out of the woodwork to bash her and that he was reveling in such commotion, that would be one thing. But I have no doubt that Apache asked the question innocently and had no idea the bashers would "ride in on their broomsticks." From all the posts I've read of Apache's, and I have done searches of his posts on two different occasions to see if I was wrong and if indeed there was a pattern of "stirring things up," all I've found is an ardent Michelle fan who admits he doesn't know much about figure skating in general. Even if people do add posts to this thread in which they critisize Michelle for not doing the GP series, which I see has already happened--and I also see that Eltamina edited her post at 6:31pm to add "IIRC you [Mathman] observed something about a year ago. Someone post a thread about 'Why do people hate so and so....' Sure enough, it was like a magnet, that attracted the haters of so and so. 'They flew in with the broomsticks and told us in vivid details why they hate so and so... (per Uberprofessor Herr Doktor Mann) I wonder how this thread will develop," which is after Akaira_posted her criticisms of Michelle at 5:49pm. So no, Eltamina, it was not "before I can say"; you edited your post some 40 minutes <em>after</em> you had the opportunity to read Akaira's post.

BTW, in my searches of ApacheApache's threads and posts I found no pattern of "instigating" or "troublemaking." I think some people may just be allergic to admitting, even to themselves, that they might be wrong.

IMO Apache's question here and his previous questions have been sincere. Every time Apache has posted on GS he has stated how much he loves Michelle. Several times he has said that the only reason he watches figure skating is because of Michelle. He has also stated that he really doesn't know or care to know much about skating in general because he's not interested in the sport, he just loves Michelle. Because of this, Apache has said, he may ask "dumb" questions sometimes. I've never seen Apache write anything even implying anything negative about Michelle. He has questions and has come here on occasion to ask them. He had a question and he asked it in a direct manner. Perhaps because he doesn't know all the personalities involved in skating he didn't know that any question about Michelle where something negative is involved must be worded very carefully. I notice that on Apache's other thread, "1996 Worlds Revisited - Lu Chen vs Michelle" that of the few people who have responded, nobody has had a problem with Apache, but there his final opinion about Worlds '96 is that Michelle should have won. If Apache is responsible for the kinds of things that are said on a post he started, then we are all responsible for everything anyone says in response to anything we say. I find this notion absolutely ridiculous.

I also think it's unfair to take a quote out of context and then use it to say Apache has an "amazing knack for finding 'negativity towards Michelle' to read about, on virtually every issue that comes up," as Mathman did. If Apache were finding "negativity about Michelle" on "virtually every issue that comes up," he'd be posting about it here10 times a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.

From reading many, many of Apache's posts, I have no doubt that he pays attention to very little about figure skating unless it has to do with Michelle. IMO Apache is an ardent Michelle fan who gets very upset when he reads people posting ugly criticisms about Michelle. Thus he would be the last person to want to prompt such comments. Eltamina, you yourself have often talked about the horrible things people say about Michelle on certain other forums, and from what I've seen, it's true--on certain other forums people indeed bash Michelle. Forgive me if I'm being presumptuous, but I think Apache comes to GS to ask his questions because he feels he will get a fair and accurate response. I hope anybody would feel free to ask an honest question about any skater at GS no matter what his/her knowledge of skating is without fear of insinuations of being a troublemaker. As a professor I admired in grad school once said, "There is no such thing as a stupid question as long as the person asking it is sincere." I wholeheartedly agree with this and I think Apache is sincere.

I know this may sound like I'm making a big deal out of nothing, but with the ever-increasing membership at GS, no doubt the forum will be getting more posters who may not use the best wording when asking questions that involve controversial issues. I would hate to see other people get the kind of treatment Apache has gotten from a few posters here. I think this probably bothers me more than it does Apache, lol, but I'm using Apache to make a general point that sometimes people put a label on a poster based on a past misunderstanding, and sometimes a genuine argument, but when it comes to one's favorite skater (and I mean any skater, not just Michelle), I think there is a tendency for fans see bashing where there is none. I've no doubt been guilty of it myself.

If people have doubts about ApacheApache's motives, perhaps they could do him the courtesy of reading some of his posts. I've listed those I found by doing a Search of "ApacheApache" on "The Edge" and included all except the ones from this thread and one that was just a one sentence "Thanks for the summary" to another poster. This is only to those who feel Apache is out to make trouble about Michelle. I hope you would read his posts as quickly as you would assume he has ulterior motives.

Sorry I can't link these, but if you click "Search" and put in the name "ApacheApache" (no space between the two names) you will get a list like this, plus the posts I said I left out, and you can click on the names to go directly to the posts.

What's wrong with comparisons?_ _ _ _
5/31/03 1:51:17 pm_ _ _ _ ApacheApache
Re: What's wrong with comparisons?_ _ _ _
5/31/03 4:12:12 am_ _ _ _ ApacheApache
Michelle's 6-7 triple programs in the last 10 years_ _ _ _
5/15/03 1:32:01 am_ _ _ _ ApacheApache
Re: "Greatest Technique"_ _ _ _
5/30/03 6:30:56 am_ _ _ _ ApacheApache
1996 Worlds Revisited - Lu Chen vs Michelle_ _ _ _
6/9/03 10:23:43 pm_ _ _ _ ApacheApache
Why I like the CoP System?_ _ _ _
6/2/03 12:07:10 pm_ _ _ _ ApacheApache
Under "Past Edgings"
Objectively speaking:The most decorated skater in the US_ _ _ _
5/4/03 9:30:52 am_ _ _ _ ApacheApache

Rgirl

Edited to fix the messy way the part about ApacheApache's posts turned out

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I see that as the same kind of mentality that has caused the Four Continents to become so degraded in prestige - top skaters don't bother to show up. [/quote]

Was the 4C competition ever a prestigious competition?? I've always assumed it was for senior skaters who, if they didn't get to go to Worlds, attended this instead. If some top-flight senior skaters attended, more publicity, but I've never seen it as being a 'top-of-the-resume' medal. Sort of like the Gardenia Trophy or something.

Just another ISU invention that tries to be something it isn't.

And again, if some skater wants to take away Michelle's National and World titles, then they need to beat her. Otherwise, Michelle's got nothing to apologize for.

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Hey Rgirl, thank you so much for going to such length to speak for me. I really appreciate it.

Wow, I never thought my intention could be misconstrued in such a way. A year ago when I was not familiar with GS, I asked "Why do some hate Michelle so much" because I really wanted to know and had no idea that it would be seen as another thread meant to stir trouble. So, when I started this thread, I asked "Is she given preferential treatment", all I wanted to know was "yes" or "no". If yes, I wouldn't like it because I always believe in equality and it certainly wouldn't be fair to others even though Michelle deserves it for her contribution. If no, great, at least I know those detractors are just rambling.

Seriously I never thought my posts would be misconstrued as anti-Michelle in disguise. If only some of you did read what I posted on MKF. Anyway, I give you guys the benefit of the doubt, I don't get pissed because I like this forum and I would just think it's common for people to misunderstand at times. I will continue to post what's on my mind, in a direct manner because that's my style. :lol:

Cheers!

Re: How to Ask Questions About Michelle

Apache, you're a good egg and have always taken the accusations that you somehow "urge" all the Kwan-bashers to come out with good humor and understanding. I don't understand how your posts are misconstrued either, but as you said, it's common for people to misconstrue. With me it's not just about you (I'm probably starting to annoy you:lol: ), it's about the principle of giving someone the benefit of the doubt, unless s/he is obviously baiting or bashing.

Actually, people can read your posts at MKF. MKF has a search feature too, if I'm not mistaken. If people want to get to know ApacheApache, besides reading his posts via search on GS, they can do the same thing using the search feature at MKF.

Glad to hear you're posting on, Apache. I like your style
Rgirl

Edited to add:
The Four Continents Championship was added to be the North and South American and Asian equivalent to the European Championships. It hasn't had much prestige so far because in general the top US and Canadian skaters haven't attended and the Asians haven't been a force in figure skating until recently. I think that as the Asians increase their impact on FS that Four Continents will become as prestigious as Europeans. And in case anybody missed it before, other eligible skaters have skipped major events--Todd Eldredge took off two years--with no special treatment from the USFSA. No US eligible skater is bound by the USFSA to compete in any event. I don't think Michelle is getting any preferential treatment from the USFSA but as 7-time US champion, 5-time World champion, and 2-time Olympic medalist, if any US skater has earned special treatment, IMO it would be Michelle. But she's not getting it. She's following the rules just like all the other skaters.

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Frankly, I don't believe that it's in the rules that a skater must perform in the GP series to compete at World's. Therefore, how can it be considered preferential treatment to allow MK and/or Sarah to skip the GP?

As for the Grand Prix:

I believe the Grand Prix series has existed for years as an opportunity for skaters to perform their new routines in front of international judges. This allows for feedback prior to competing at World's. This can be perceived as an advantage to those who do perform in GP's.

The Grand Prix Final was invented by the ISU to allow 'amateur' skaters the opportunity to win money in a sanctioned event. A lot of skaters were turning pro for financial reasons. The ISU had come up with a way to allow the skaters to earn prize money. The event is about rewarding the most consistent skater.

So far, the ISU has not managed this event well enough to make it truly prestigious to the general public. I know a lot of people who call themselves fans who don't know what the Grand Prix series means. This is evidenced by how the Final is not conducted during the same general month - sometimes it's before World's, sometime's it's before US Nationals. Who knows when to look for it? If people aren't aware of the title, who cares who wins?

I'm not saying the Grand Prix is meaningless, but I don't hear the skaters being announced as 1998 Grand Prix Gold medalist. The emphasis is on Olympic, World and National titles in that order. I

t's above the 4C's in my book, but the general public doesn't know the difference between the Grand Prix and the 4C's.

I see no reason - other than experience and prize money - for a skater to perform at Grand Prix's. There can be a lot of travel required which is tiring. This also costs money. For more seasoned skaters, what is the benefit of performing in Grand Prix's? Seasoned veterans like MK and Sarah have proved their consistency by being on the podium repetitively. While Sasha has been around for several years, she's only been competing at the senior international level for 2 years and has not medalled at World's - she gains a lot more in the judges eyes by performing at Grand Prix's than MK and Sarah.

Back on topic... no MK is not receiving preferential treatment by not having to perform at GP's.

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Akaira:"Well, I'll confess to being annoyed by Michelle Kwan's decision not to compete in the Grand Prix circuit. I realize it's not required, but I still consider it to be part of the figure skating "season." I think that, if healthy, she should either skate for the entire season or not skate at all. It seems unfair that she should skip the GP and then just show up to pick up some more world and national titles. I see that as the same kind of mentality that has caused the Four Continents to become so degraded in prestige - top skaters don't bother to show up. That undermines the importance of the entire event. Not that Michelle Kwan is destroying the GP by not showing up - but if other top skaters follow this trend, it could."

I certainly don't agree with the notion that it's unfair for Michelle to just show up at Nats and Worlds and scoop the titles. If it's so simple, would any top skaters dare do it?
I don't think other top skaters would follow in Michelle's footsteps. As I said, competing less is actually detrimental because it takes away the match-confidence of an athlete. No one in their right minds would cut down on their competitions drastically unless they are injured. Because Michelle did the miracle by competing less and still winning Nats and Worlds, people have started to think it's an easy task without realising what lack of competitions can do an athlete in a negative way. Don't forget before Nats, she was not favoured to win precisely because of lack of competitions she had entered.

People should understand Michelle is actually taking a huge risk by competing less. It's not Michelle's or any other top skaters' responsibility to carry the name of a competition. If their absence undermines the competition per se, then it's just too bad. What matters to me is Michelle is not given the exception by the federation to skip.

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Rgirl, you don't annoy me, but you do when you say Michelle's skating in general just wouldn't do it for you.:lol:

It's nice of you to defend SashaFans.com but I just want to say that it's the same at MKF. Most of the posters are sensible Michelle fans, not bashers. When some posters bash, they are instantly rebuffed. The problem is, because MKF has 5400 members, it seems there are a lot of bashers there. The truth of the matter is, the percentage of bashers on every skater-specific forum is roughly the same.

rgirl

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I could not disagree more with the idea that the poster who starts a thread with a legitimate question is responsible for the kind of responses it gets. [/quote]

Glad you see that you have changed your mind about starter of a thread is not responsible for the responses. IIRC, one time when a dual MK and Tara fan started a thread about Tara, you seemed to hold her responsible for the responses it got.

PS to add, I see you have used the edit features a few hours apart.

Re: Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Hey Apache - MK's decision is hers. We (her fans) would love to see her as much as possible either in the Grand Prix, signing books, co hosting tv show, whatever. It's all her thing.

One of the downsides of not doing GP is the fact that she will not be top banana in the Rankings of the ISU. I'm sooooo sad about that.

Joe