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Orser didn't "produce" his Olympic champions. He deserves credit but he hardly created them. Both Hanyu and Kim were world-class talent with Worlds/Olympic title potential well before they went to Orser.
Who is the better coach, Orser or Carroll?
- Thread starter doze
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Orser didn't "produce" his Olympic champions. He deserves credit but he hardly created them. Both Hanyu and Kim were world-class talent with Worlds/Olympic title potential well before they went to Orser.
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Splitting hairs really. It's not sheer luck that Orser was successful in such a short time. He has the knack.
I don't believe teaching a skater skills since childhood is easier or harder than helping an Olympic/World Champion refine techniques, just different skill sets.
And yes a coach needs to know how to politik and gather support for his skaters, no matter how wonderful their skating is.
A Olympic-level talent would be evident from childhood, so whoever gets the good luck of coaching these very few people to gold would be given more credit than people who helped them develop.
A coach may teach basic skills, but talent is inborn, and the finishing touches are done by a master of which Orser and Carroll obviously are.
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Indeed, like apple and orange. I always prefer acid citron to Eve's seducing fruit because the former doesn't need a tool for me to eat.
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- Feb 23, 2014
Some coachs will work for a skater, some won´t.
I think there is no way yo say.
I think there is no way yo say.
Ever actually watch Mishin coach?
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Maybe in terms of jumps he's the best coach, but no way to practically every other aspect of his students' skating.
I'd say Orser. He's got a way of really refining skaters and pushing them technically but still maintaining good technique.
If you compare the top male skaters of Mishin/Orser/Carroll - arguably, Plushenko/Hanyu/Ten, you can tell that Orser/Carroll are much more committed to developing the all-around qualities of their skaters instead of primarily focusing on the jumps.
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Champions is one aspect of it. For example, Hanyu is a much better skater overall than Plushenko, and a lot of that is attributed to Orser. Mishin is still a fantastic coach who is good at making his skaters strong jumpers and good competitors but he doesn't seem to be interested in developing things like skating skills/spins/intricate choreography, etc.
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You are comparing a guy who started with the 6.0 though to 2 guys who started already under the COP.
While not the best in the worlds in any of those regards, IMO, Liza Tuk has worked a lot on things like her spins, her speed and basic skating or her transitions. And she's also with Mishin.
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Artistically, Mishin is nowhere near Carroll and Orser who actually care about the whole package. Mishin's students' programs are often 
As a master of jumps, I think Orser will catch up with Mishin one day. There aren't that many coaches out there who were actually as highly accomplished in terms of medals and actually performed those jumps (quads, 3as, etc).
Mishin seems so hands-off in some areas, so I agree with KKonas.
While Mishin has coached jumping prodigies, he was good at selecting jumping prodigies in the first place. He doesn't seem willing to coach mediocre jumpers at least full time or skaters with many things to work on and improve. He wrote books and conducted many seminars on jump mechanics. I think whatever he did with Liza is simply brilliant, but there was no way he would ever have taken her on if she weren't exceptionally talented technically.
As a master of jumps, I think Orser will catch up with Mishin one day. There aren't that many coaches out there who were actually as highly accomplished in terms of medals and actually performed those jumps (quads, 3as, etc).
Mishin seems so hands-off in some areas, so I agree with KKonas.
While Mishin has coached jumping prodigies, he was good at selecting jumping prodigies in the first place. He doesn't seem willing to coach mediocre jumpers at least full time or skaters with many things to work on and improve. He wrote books and conducted many seminars on jump mechanics. I think whatever he did with Liza is simply brilliant, but there was no way he would ever have taken her on if she weren't exceptionally talented technically.
Well I too think Orser is better well rounded coach. While Yuzuru and Javier had quads before turning to Orser, he coached Nam to get quad, and now he has another male young talent there. I would say that Cricket Club is currently the best place for the male skaters. Hanyu really progressed hugely in very short time under Orser in all areas
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Well,,, They are the great coaches for my favorite skaters. I can't pick just one! I would like to have the combination of the three... Can we do an exchange program?
I would like to have Orser for the OGM packaging, Mishin for jump techniques and mentoring when going through hardships, and Carroll for being at the rink side to calm down the nerves and a little bit of politicking at the competition. Of course, they are all welcome to the Kiss and Cry to share the joy of teaching together.
I would like to have Orser for the OGM packaging, Mishin for jump techniques and mentoring when going through hardships, and Carroll for being at the rink side to calm down the nerves and a little bit of politicking at the competition. Of course, they are all welcome to the Kiss and Cry to share the joy of teaching together.
If we actually compare people from the same era, Carroll coached Goebel. Surely you're not going to start suggesting that Goebel was a better skater than Plushenko?
We'll be waiting a long time before we see any of Carroll/Orser's students medal at four Olympics...
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I agree that Yuna and Hanyu was great skaters before they came to Orser. But Fernandez wasn't so good, not a potentional world medalist. And I absolutely don't agree with your first sentence. Nam Nguyen was 14(Michelle was 11 when she started at Caroll) when he came to Orser and had no major medals just one bronze from JGP. So Nam learned quad under Orser, won junior world under Orser and won his first senior national title under him as well. And his career is definitely not over yet.
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Artistically, Mishin is nowhere near Carroll and Orser who actually care about the whole package. Mishin's students' programs are often
That's not Mishin's fault, that's the fault of the choreographers who work with his students.
But he does seek improvement for his students. For example, he brought in Stephane Lambiel on multiple occasions to work with Artur and Liza on their spins. But it is much more convenient for people to think Mishin closes them off, they don't want to think that he is actually a great coach.
Do you think Orser or Carroll would accept elite students who could not jump well? Of course not. As to skaters with things to work on - he taught Artur the single Axel. Now THAT is developing a skater and producing them - and Artur is still the best skater in Russia now, if the cockroaches would get out of his head.
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Artur Dmitriev Jr. (who left Mishin in 2010 and was taken back last year, for reasons I still don't quite understand)
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I don't think Goebel was a better performer or a more consistent jumper than Plushenko (nor does he have nearly the speed or the artistry). However, his choreography was more intricate, he had nicer edges and field moves, and he did more transitional movements into his jumps/spins instead of motoring into them. Not to mention he could execute two different quads, and quite well at that. IMO, had he not had the turn out on the 3A in SLC, he should have edged out Plushenko for silver.
And not to trivialize Plushenko's 4th Olympic medal in Sochi, but that was in a team event. Obviously his 3 individual medals though (including gold) will not be matched probably ever -- and those medals came due to being consistent while others faltered (see: 2010), and not because he was actually the best all-around skater. In other words, Mishin was able to develop a strong mentality in his skaters (Plu being the best example), which allowed them to win, even though (personally) a lot of fundamental non-jump aspects of his skating/choreo could have used improvement (especially compared to the Hanyus/Chans/Takahashis/Lambiels).
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It is part of the coach's responsibility to care about how programs are being presented. The coach should have a profound understanding of their skaters' abilities and challenge them to optimize their programs - I just feel Mishin isn't as committed to that compared to getting the jumps done (which of course works out well, compared to a skater who develops all-around abilities/programs but can't execute cleanly).
Artur needs more than cockroaches removed. There are a ton of aspects of his skating that need refinement, even if he landed all the tricks. IMO, even Pitkeev is surpassing him now artistically, and Kovtun/Voronov/Menshov are unquestionably superior to him at this point if all of them went clean.
More transitions =/= better skater. Goebel could barely beat Takeshi Honda when both went clean. Also, though I loved the ease of Goebel's 4S, I suspect there was something wrong with his technique, considering his sharp decline...
...and in that Team Event, he beat the reigning World Champion in the SP. Yes, said World Champion was really off his game, but I'm having trouble imagining anyone else beating a current world champion at 31 (+fourth Olympics).
A coach's job is to create champions in competitions, not champions in practices. And while aspects of Plushenko's skating could've used improvement, the same could be said any skater (Chan and Lambiel's axel techniques, anyone? It's not just headcasing that prevented them from skating clean...). No one else from Plushenko's generation was able to last in COP the way he did.
(Btw, I don't actually have a horse in the "best coach" race.
I think it depends on the skater.)Similar threads
