Two quads in the SP?

I agree with what many people are saying here. 2 quads in the SP it's too risky, land them and your scores will soar, miss them and you can basically kiss the podium goodbye. On the other hand, with a solid SP as buffer, you can go for it in the FP, if you fail, you have your SP and the other FS jumps as cushions.
Hanyu (who misses his 4S more often than not and is already struggling with the combo on the SP) and Fernandez (who has also not been that consistent on the 4S lately) don't need to risk it so much because their skills and reputation give them good PCS that make up for it, both of them have SP full of transitions and difficult step sequences. Aside from the GOEs, for example, you can't possibly tell me that Kovtun and Hanyu have the same quality in, say, the 3A. So Kovtun needs to make up for those points, where other skaters have the upper edge in skills and GOEs, with another quad. But they're ambitious guys, so maybe when they get more consistent (consistent enough to get positive GOEs most of the time), and have the need to incorporate them to stay on top (there are many that don't even have a quad in the SP yet), they will. 2 quads is also a risk to the skater's health, so there's no reason for them to risk it when they don't have the need.

Boyang did put 2 quads in his SP at Chinese Nationals, but the second quad was hand-down. He got 87 points and the Chinese Nationals is pretty strict in judging, so he could potentially get higher points in international competitions with the same contents and same mistake. He has practiced 4lutz, so we perhaps can see him to execute three different quads in free skate of the next season's senior Grand Prix series.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Note that Kovtun actually used to do 3 quads and two axels. But has opted for 2 quads, likely to develop his programs artistically.

I disagree that energy level is an issue when it's only 3 jumping passes versus 8... And yet with 8 jumping passes, two different quads are attempted. Also, points-wise, a spin being a "only" level 3 instead of level 4 is negligible compared to having a triple instead of a second quad.

Lame that you try to justify Abbott's FUSp because he's an artistic force, or Fernandez as having 3 quads (mind you Fernandez does only one 3A whereas Kovtun does two).

Also, Kovtun's spin value isn't low - at Euros all but one spin were a level 4 for him.

Also, a FUSp4 is worth 0.1 points less (2.9) than a FSSp4 (3.0) and 0.3 less than a FCSp4 (3.2). So who cares about what basic position the spin is in?

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Yes, I don't understand what's the problem of having upright spin in your program.

Sandpiper said:

There are only three jumping passes in the SP. Two quads is risky, since you can get more for a well-done 3Lz vs. a fallen quad. Whereas doing two different quads is a big advantage in the LP, since it 1) allows you to repeat two different triples (instead of the either/or situation facing someone like Machida) 2) even if you fall, it's better than the 2A/3T/whatever you have left to replace it with.

Two quads in the SP requires several skills: Two reliable quads, the ability to do one out of steps, the ability to do the other in combination, and the focus to not head-case on your 3A afterwards. Yuzuru lacks one of those points (the reliable 4S). He shouldn't have a problem doing a quad combination, but it'd be a new element in his programs, so who knows.

Javi at his best should be able to do it, but he's been so inconsistent this year, on both 4S and 3A. If anything, I'd suggest switching that SP 4S with a 4T, rather than adding more baggage with another quad.

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Some really good points, and these definitely clarify why more guys don't do it. Although it seems when a quad is a solo jump, the judges are more likely to overlook preceding steps. And a quad is still worth the base value of a triple-triple, so even a quad-double combo is worth more than a 3-3 (i.e. 4-3 isn't mandatory to benefit from including a quad). I also think a skater tends to get a bit of a PCS boost if they have a second quad. But the reasons you mentioned are good ones as to avoiding doing two of them. And yeah, maybe with Hanyu it especially doesn't make sense because he rarely does quad combinations (other than exhibitions). I agree with you about Javi doing a 4T instead of a 4S though.

Alchamei said:

Yes, I don't understand what's the problem of having upright spin in your program.

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You aren't maximizing point geting or goe. Look at any protocol FUSPs are always the lowest scoring spins. Goe is not given generously for a spin considered low difficulty. This is why people with one quad or no quads outscored kovtun. FUSPs are weak. It can be level 4 but it doesn't matter.

inside edges said:

Boyang did put 2 quads in his SP at Chinese Nationals, but the second quad was hand-down. He got 87 points and the Chinese Nationals is pretty strict in judging, so he could potentially get higher points in international competitions with the same contents and same mistake. He has practiced 4lutz, so we perhaps can see him to execute three different quads in free skate of the next season's senior Grand Prix series.

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I looked back in the Chinese Nationals thread. He did 4S-2T, 3A, 4T (hand down). I think the 4S-2T is why the score seems oddly low (just ask Daisuke Murakami and Max Aaron).

Boyang seems like one of those people who'd do a hundred quads a day and upgrade his difficulty endlessly. :hopelessness: I hope someone on his teams reins him in. Yes, I do hope to see that amazing 4Lz, but all in due time. He's competitive with a one-quad SP and his current LP if he could work on the second mark.

Like Javi, he's someone who has the goods to push the technical. But for the moment, I'd recommend scaling back more than racing forward.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Some really good points, and these definitely clarify why more guys don't do it. Although it seems when a quad is a solo jump, the judges are more likely to overlook preceding steps. And a quad is still worth the base value of a triple-triple, so even a quad-double combo is worth more than a 3-3 (i.e. 4-3 isn't mandatory to benefit from including a quad). I also think a skater tends to get a bit of a PCS boost if they have a second quad. But the reasons you mentioned are good ones as to avoiding doing two of them. And yeah, maybe with Hanyu it especially doesn't make sense because he rarely does quad combinations (other than exhibitions). I agree with you about Javi doing a 4T instead of a 4S though.

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But two quads with a quad-double is much harder to do--and much less likely to be clean--than one quad with a triple-triple (or one quad with a quad-triple). The chance of failure is too high, and the points you gain isn't worth the risk.

And this strategy doesn't really benefit anyone. The people who struggle on quad combinations but do them anyway (Aaron, Murakami) do so because they don't feel comfortable trying the quad out of steps. For the two-quad strategy, they'd need to do those steps anyway.

However, I do agree that the judges are lax about full -3 GOE for lack of steps. I can't really blame them; I too would be hesitant to give a Michal Brezina 4S the same GOE as a fall... For that reason, it's kinda baffling for Murakami to plan (!) 4S-2T instead of just doing the solo 4S and a 3-3. No steps? No problem! It'll still get him more points than his current layout. Max at least hit the 4S-3T at Nationals and tries to perform it, instead of... basically giving up like Murakami.

gmyers said:

You aren't maximizing point geting or goe. Look at any protocol FUSPs are always the lowest scoring spins. Goe is not given generously for a spin considered low difficulty. This is why people with one quad or no quads outscored kovtun. FUSPs are weak. It can be level 4 but it doesn't matter.

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Look at the post that CanadienSkaterGuy made. FUSp is only 0,1 less than FsSp and 0,3 less than FcSp. That is basically no difference, it doesn't matter whether you you do Upright or Sit spin. And others overscore Kovtun because they have better GOE on jumps AND spins even though he has also level 4. Btw, I still can't get your explanation why it is ok for Javi and Jeremy to have an upright spin. Javi has one ans still overscores Maxim with two quads very often.

gmyers said:

You aren't maximizing point geting or goe. Look at any protocol FUSPs are always the lowest scoring spins. Goe is not given generously for a spin considered low difficulty. This is why people with one quad or no quads outscored kovtun. FUSPs are weak. It can be level 4 but it doesn't matter.

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Geez, it's 0.1 points difference. If a skater can execute a FUSp4 better than they can execute a FSSp4, then it makes sense to go with what you're more comfortable with (which will likely garner more GOE). The spin at the 2 minute mark is certainly not something I'd call "weak" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JGxNNFVMEk

I suppose you think level 3 laybacks without a Biellmann position are also weak? You think guys who do a quad toe instead of a quad salchow are also not maximizing their points (with the extra 0.2 points a 4S is worth)?