Not necessarily, but maybe yes, because Mao is a member of the "3A ladies". But drivingmissdaisy didn't drag Mao into this.
Breakthrough - Liza Tuks joins the echelons of 3A ladies
- Thread starter Globetrotter
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- Dec 22, 2012
I am not sure what chaimanmao wants to do but is clear she wants to cause this debate which 3A is better, I thought this thread was to celebrate Liza not to analyze Mao's jump.
Chairmanmao's comments on Liza's 3A are pretty much "cut & paste" from what she said in the event thread. Clearly here to troll.
Jammers- Yes but that's not the point. We're celebrating the addition of another lady in this league. EVERYONE knows Ito's axel is legendary, so comparing it to the rest of the ladies will always be a moot point. It's already wonderful that the sport takes another step in progress- don't sully it with an archaic argument. If every 3A looked like Ito's then Ito's wouldn't be special. All of the 3As of each lady is individual to them- Mao's is aesthetically pleasing because of the precision and control, Ito's for it's height and distance, likewise with Harding but hers was a bit unrefined (characteristically like Tonya herself), Tuktamysheva's is somewhere in between and who's to say it won't be different? We've only seen it twice!
Point is- yes Ito's is the standard because hers was the first, but it's up to the rest of the ladies to make it their own.
Point is- yes Ito's is the standard because hers was the first, but it's up to the rest of the ladies to make it their own.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I wish you a less troubled life.
You don't have to wait for that, I tell you: you are no John Nash!What I find interesting is, that the first two 3A ladies were only admired because of it, but the later were all (some heavily) criticised. Specially on the internet. :confused2:
:thumbsup:
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2014
Just hope that she gets a good rest and comes back next season with a SP that is choreo with the 3A in place and an LP that includes one 3A as well. That will be a major breakthrough. Choreo is Tuks major pCS weakness though, so a change of scene will help.
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2014
You had me running to the protocol to check on this, I got confused for a second. I can confirm that she has the highest choreography score across the board in both the short & free programs. Not sure what you mean by "major PCS weakness"... I assume that is just your personal opinion?
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2014
Hi Sabinfire, yes it was just a personal opinion. I know the scores rewarded her pretty nicely but her SP in particular at worlds really seemed a bit haphazard despite the glorious 3A. I understand that it was never intended with a 3A. I am ok with her PE and even IN scores really but the overall CR was really strange to me. I much prefer a programme such as say Alena Leonovas Chaplin SP where the moves were in sync and well matched with the music and actually told a nice story and allowed a good performance. I always felt that was not sufficiently rewarded. I hope Tuks can get something planned out like that.
Not sure about her short... and maybe some people will throw stones at me
But i love her free program choreography - it is somehow fits her perfectly, and showcases greatly some of Tuktik's strong sides (the soft arm movements, for example) which look just great with the eastern/"bellydance" style. And has the huge bonus of being not so similar to the ballet so many skaters do >.<
But i love her free program choreography - it is somehow fits her perfectly, and showcases greatly some of Tuktik's strong sides (the soft arm movements, for example) which look just great with the eastern/"bellydance" style. And has the huge bonus of being not so similar to the ballet so many skaters do >.<
I liked her original short program better--with the spiral entry into 2A near the end. (See: Nationals performance). Back when she was getting choreography, I highly doubt they'd known she'd eventually be including 3A.
To be honest, it hasn't been a great year of ladies' SPs (in terms of programs--we did, of course, see many good performances). Other than Alena Leonova, I don't see the other programs as stronger than Liza's.
Liza's free is a good program, imo. It suits her well and showcases her strengths (the arms, changes in tempo/mood, her control on jump landings, the dance-like quality of her steps at the end).
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2014
I liked her original short program better--with the spiral entry into 2A near the end. (See: Nationals performance). Back when she was getting choreography, I highly doubt they'd known she'd eventually be including 3A.
To be honest, it hasn't been a great year of ladies' SPs (in terms of programs--we did, of course, see many good performances). Other than Alena Leonova, I don't see the other programs as stronger than Liza's.
Liza's free is a good program, imo. It suits her well and showcases her strengths (the arms, changes in tempo/mood, her control on jump landings, the dance-like quality of her steps at the end).
Yes, I also preferred her earlier SP layout. She had more interesting transitions. For the next season, I am hoping she will get a nice new SP where the 3A is incorporated nicely. The only part of her Worlds 2015 SP I really like was her StSq. It was almost like after she got through her jumps clean, she felt so happy that she gave a more energetic footwork show than usual. As for her LP, I know Papa Mishin will plan at least one 3A in it. Hope the layout keeps this in mind and if it does not turnout well, at least it can be a 2A in place. But knowing Liza and Mishin, it will get done. If she has a 3A and 3-3 in both SP and LP, then I think even the likes of Yuna Kim and Mao Asada and Caro Kostner will be hard pressed to even come close.
I agree, but then you know the sport has to progress at some point. As much as I love the Holy Trinity of ladies FS post-2006, technically it's about time that another lady pushes the technical difficulty. I feel as though that rested on Mao and Kim for too long (two quads!) but that groundwork has obviously transpired well with these younger skaters (3Lz-3T being almost a requirement, and now Tuk laying down her 3A.) However, I'd hate to think that artistry ended when these three and Akiko Suzuki left the stage. They set the standards VERY high and none of the current crop of ladies have the artistry to match their TES. We've seen flashes of it- you have some balletic skaters and some sprightly ones- even Tuktamysheva has her own brand of artistry akin to say- Slutskaya. I suppose given that most of them are still under 18 it's not really that surprising but again, we were very spoiled by the last two cycles.
If Liza was to tackle choreography, she would be unstoppable. She doesn't need to be some lyrical skater, that's not who she is- but something fiery and a little bit more refined of a program would be great for her. And enough with the gypsy/belly dancing theme. And the mumus.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2014
I think that you have realised it very clearly. Much as the current crop of skaters are talented technically, they are mostly very young. I know we have been spoilt by Yuna, Mao and Caro. If we were to look back, it will be clear that they only came to their performance peak when they were older, i.e. in their 20's. In their teen years, I remember that Caro was like a speedy young colt, all long limbs and arms. Yuna's skating was also clunky, lacking the polish and flair. And Mao, the axel prodigy simply skated right through her music. I think the technical goods come pretty early but the polish and presentation will take longer. Other than Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen, I can't think of any lady skaters who developed the artistry and polish at that precocious age. I doubt that Liza Tuks, Lena Radio or Ade Sots will be the sort of ethereal skater like Mao, the lyrical and light sort like Mao or the mature polish type like Yuna and certainly not the feminine grace of Maria Butyrskaya. Their personalities are not like that. It will probably be closer as you say to the Slutskaya sort, all big smiles and big personality fiery performance. A different brand but just as interesting. I am just so glad that with this new scoring system, at least lady skaters never needed to be confined to that ice princess style. Was just thinking back to those days when Slutskaya had to skate balletic, Midori Ito and Tonya had to take on feminine styles and a muscular lady like Surya Bonaly would never be credited for presentation - shudder.
:thumbsup:
As I often find the artistic/lyric skaters to be rather boring (don't get me wrong, if it is a GREAT performance, I'm all into it) I'm very happy about this. Although I believe that Bonaly was grossly overscored during her whole career.
The judges had no idea what to do with her. It's certainly sad that the top three ladies of the last cycle all didn't compete this season, Yuna has ended her career, but we haven't seen much of her in the last four years anyway (apart from skate shows and worlds). Maybe we'll see Mao again, Carolina most likely not and I also hope for Adelina, as I want to see what she's really capable of, I don't think we've seen that yet.
It will be really interesting how the young russian girls will develop, as they've to push their tech constantly to be competetive in their own country. It's certainly easier to develop artistry if the pressure isn't that high, so we might see better overal programs from the likes of Satoko Miyhara and Polina Edmunds in the future imho.
And Mishin stated in his last interview, that the main focus is on jumps.
So we might see Liza leading an armada of quad jumpers from russia ... (didn't Serafima Sakhanovich say, that she'll work on her quad in the off season?) 
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