Bloc Judging

berthes ghost · May 17, 2004

Watching the Eurovision Song Contest, it was interesting to see/hear accusations of EE bloc judging from something other than skating. :laugh:

Waht are your opinions on this all too prevasive theory. Does it exist or is it a myth.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 17, 2004

My take on bloc judging is cultural and it is not necessarily a plot among judges. Cultural or Patriotic judging is subjective. Plotting an outcome is fraud and criminal.

What was this 'bloc' jusdging all about?

Joe.

Joe

berthes ghost · May 17, 2004

What was this 'bloc' jusdging all about?

Same stuff.

All of the former soviet countries which now each have voting rights, all voted for the Ukrain, which was not 'buzzed' as a contender before the event, but won handily.

icenut84 · May 17, 2004

berthes ghost said:
All of the former soviet countries which now each have voting rights, all voted for the Ukrain, which was not 'buzzed' as a contender before the event, but won handily.

The Ukranians got high votes from many countries, not just the former soviet ones, IIRC, which is why they won. (Before the contest, I'd read that they were one of the favourites.)

I agree it's likely more cultural preference than evil judges. (Especially as it's a public vote.)

Kateri · May 17, 2004

Ah, but it's traditional to bloc judge at the Eurovision Song Contest!

it's totally camp, cheesy and ridiculous, the winner is irrelevant, and some countries just always do vote for certain other countries.

.....

...I really really don't want to see FS in the same light! :eek:

...i'm sure it's not quite that bad.....

...maybe....

...right??

k

Ptichka · May 17, 2004

Kateri said:
it's totally camp, cheesy and ridiculous, the winner is irrelevant, and some countries just always do vote for certain other countries.

Irrelevant? Do you remember the '98 controversy in Israel when they won? You'd think it was the most important political issue ever! (Tongue firmly in cheek)

Koroleva · May 18, 2004

I always thought that this was a very interesting link on who really has a national bias in skating.

Should hopefully open the eyes of some people.

SusanBeth · May 18, 2004

The site doesn't address the fact that the one Canadian judge on a given panel would not have the same effect as 3 or 4 former Soviet judges. Bloc does mean groups working in tandem. It reminds me of that old tree/forest saying. If a Canadian judge taps his foot and there's no one listening, does it still count as cheating?

Also, if a significant portion of a panel is made up of judges from the old Soviet system, the fact that they agree with each other doesn't mean as much.
[I'm not agreeing that Canadian judges cheat. I'm just addressing what was in the article.]

Joesitz (RIP) · May 18, 2004

It's not the 'old soviet system' although under that system there was little chance to think for oneself. The problem is cultural. Those cuntries have much more in common than the soivet regime. the language, the schooling, the way of life, etc., It all measures up to a unified way of appreciating the arts, and there is a little bit of slavic pride in there too. Why not.

Joe

Ptichka · May 18, 2004

Joe, I would almost agree with you. The truth is that none of the old Soviet countries have their truly indpendent schools yet. Therefore, we are talking about the same coaches, and often the same skaters (in case of switching countries). Culturally, the only country that would be almost identical to Russia would be Belorussia. Ukraine, for instance, is more similar to Poland (especially Western Ukraine). I won't even mention cultural differences between Russia and, say, Azerbaijan (where Malinina hailed from), or Georgia (Murvanidze).

SusanBeth · May 18, 2004

Sorry, you are right. I was taking the wrong ''verbal'' shortcut.

ETA- I've been trying to come up with another way of phrasing it. I mean these judges would tend to have the same or closely related ''roots'' as far as skating goes. They've been influenced through the same coaches, administrators, skaters, school of thought etc. I don't mean to slap on a label.

Mathman · May 18, 2004

Thanks for posting that link, Koroleva. These statistical analyses by Dr. Rossano are always food for thought.

As SusanBeth points out, Rossano's statistics do not speak directly to the question of bloc judging, only to evidence of national Chauvinism. SusanBeth is quite right to notice that if you've got your bloc together, then your own vote won't be out of line with the majority. (According to Rossano's data, Russian judges were in line with the majority of the panel, in judging skaters from the judge's own country, more often than were judges from any other country in the study.)

Canadian judges have been fighting charges of "patriotism" in overvaluing the performances of Canadian skaters for years. Interesting that Japan is also high on the "national bias" list. I wonder what a more extensive study would show.

Under the CoP, unless they change the provisions for secret judging, data of this sort will be hard to come by. We will just have to guess which judges are letting their patriotic colors show, without having any numbers to back up our opinions.

Mathman

chuckm · May 18, 2004

The National Bias in Judging article was interesting, but how judges place skaters from their own country isn’t the whole story. You’d also have to look at how the judges place skaters from OTHER countries, especially skaters who are close competitors.

Look at the ’02 Olympics, for example. There was some egregious judging done there, and it was done by judges from 3 countries: RUS, DEN and BLR.

At SLC, Sarah Hughes and Fumie Suguri were victims of off-the-wall judging.

Look at these three sets of ordinals from the SP:

4 4 4 5 5 5 5 6 10 Hughes 4
4 4 5 5 8 9 11 12 13 Suguri 7
3 3 3 4 6 6 6 6 8 Butyrskaya 5

The 10 for Hughes came from RUS.
The 11, 12 and 13 for Suguri came from DEN, BLR and RUS, respectively.
Coincidentally (sure), the 3s for Maria Butyrskaya came from DEN, BLR and RUS.

In the FS:

1 1 1 1 1 2 3 4 4 Hughes 1
4 5 5 5 5 5 5 7 8 Suguri 5
5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 12 Butyrskaya 6

The 4s for Hughes came from DEN and RUS
The 7 and 8 for Suguri came from BLR and RUS, respectively
The 5s for Butyrskaya came from BLR and RUS.

So where judges place the COMPETITORS of the skaters from the judge’s own country should be taken into consideration as well as where judges place their countrymen

Ptichka · May 18, 2004

Chuckm, very interesting indeed. Though I've never heard of Denmark being in the Eastern block before.

chuckm · May 19, 2004

A judge doesn't have to come FROM an Eastern bloc country to vote WITH the Eastern bloc. Who knows what the reasons were for the Danish judge to do so, but her voting patterns in the SLC competition were obvious.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 19, 2004

Koroleva said:
I always thought that this was a very interesting link on who really has a national bias in skating.

Should hopefully open the eyes of some people.

Hi Koroleva = It is an interesting link to national bias judging. I can understand some judges from a country favoring their own skaters, but that has little effect on the outcome of a panel of 9 judges.

However, it did not show whether the judges from theslavic speaking countries tend to agree on the placements of skaters. If there are three or more os such judges then that does make an impact on the results.

Joe

icenut84 · May 20, 2004

Interesting that when it's Canadian judges, it's "patriotism", but when it's soviet judges, it's "cheating".

One example that always springs to mind when we discuss things like this is the 99 GPF (I think?) - Irina Slutskaya skated after someone else (Malinina?). Every judge put her in first. Except the Russian judge, who put her 2nd.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 20, 2004

icenut84 said:
Interesting that when it's Canadian judges, it's "patriotism", but when it's soviet judges, it's "cheating".

One example that always springs to mind when we discuss things like this is the 99 GPF (I think?) - Irina Slutskaya skated after someone else (Malinina?). Every judge put her in first. Except the Russian judge, who put her 2nd.

How many judges were there? What were their nationalities?

Maybe the comptition was a slam dunk for Irina *she is a first rate competitor) and the Russian judge was in a position to show how non-biased he is? or

was the Russian judge incompetent?

Joe

RIskatingfan · May 20, 2004

chuckm said:
Look at these three sets of ordinals from the SP:

4 4 4 5 5 5 5 6 10 Hughes 4
4 4 5 5 8 9 11 12 13 Suguri 7
3 3 3 4 6 6 6 6 8 Butyrskaya 5

The 10 for Hughes came from RUS.
The 11, 12 and 13 for Suguri came from DEN, BLR and RUS, respectively.
Coincidentally (sure), the 3s for Maria Butyrskaya came from DEN, BLR and RUS.

In the FS:

1 1 1 1 1 2 3 4 4 Hughes 1
4 5 5 5 5 5 5 7 8 Suguri 5
5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 12 Butyrskaya 6

The 4s for Hughes came from DEN and RUS
The 7 and 8 for Suguri came from BLR and RUS, respectively
The 5s for Butyrskaya came from BLR and RUS.

I'm not from RUS, DEN or BLR and I would place Maria Butyrskaya more to 3 than to 6. She skated so well, I wonder what judges would have had her lower than 4th. Probably those who unfairly put Sarah Hughes as high as 4th?

I find it interesting that whenever we speak about bloc judging everyone mentions Eastern Europe, but no one mentions a "Western bloc" for example LOL When you have split ordinals (between 1st and 2nd places for example) and the 2nd ordinals all come from Eastern Europe judges, everyone will accuse them of bloc judging and cheating. But no one says the 1st place ordinals (which could be contries like USA, CAN, FRA, JPN...) are bloc judging too... it's only bloc judging when it comes to Eastern Europe judges, the rest of the panel is right and free of suspicious LOL I don't mean to make generalizations but this is a view I often find in message boards.

SusanBeth · May 20, 2004

But no one says the 1st place ordinals (which could be contries like USA, CAN, FRA, JPN...) are bloc judging too... it's only bloc judging when it comes to Eastern Europe judges, the rest of the panel is right and free of suspicious LOL I don't mean to make generalizations but this is a view I often find in message boards.

That may be because those countries tend to have a less ''intimate'' history between them. I suppose, some can point to the history of deep friendship between the US and Canada. I don't see that as having the same impact as the Soviet Union and it's break up. It's just not the same as having one system splinter into several pieces.

ETA Sarah being placed [by 1 judge] 10th in the short and 4th in the long wasn't exactly a hallmark of fairness either.

Bloc Judging

berthes ghost

Joesitz (RIP)

berthes ghost

icenut84

Kateri

Ptichka

Forum translator

Koroleva

SusanBeth

Joesitz (RIP)

Ptichka

Forum translator

SusanBeth

Mathman

chuckm

Ptichka

Forum translator

chuckm

Joesitz (RIP)

icenut84

Joesitz (RIP)

RIskatingfan

SusanBeth

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