- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
Nurture, skaters can fix problems. A lot have done so.
Samantha Cesario retires
- Thread starter TheGrandSophy
- Start date
Nurture, skaters can fix problems. A lot have done so.
- Joined
- May 18, 2015
I agree with this.
I think overall, the old system would have benefitted her better.
However, I do think she deserved much higher scores at Nationals in 2014 and 2015.
I think overall, the old system would have benefitted her better.
However, I do think she deserved much higher scores at Nationals in 2014 and 2015.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Country
-
You might try in our Whatever Happened To thread?
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?55314-Whatever-happened-to
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?55314-Whatever-happened-to
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Country
-
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...chei-amp-Ondrej-Hotarek&p=1158327#post1158327
I also updated Marchei and Hotarek's OP
I also updated Marchei and Hotarek's OP
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2011
Cesario has been an extremely pleasant skater. The criticism in this thread suggesting that she is suffering from a case of sour grapes seems more based on a hostile interpretation of her words (and IN editorial decisions) than anything else.
Cesario never suggests she would have been more successful under the previous judging system. Good thing, because that would have been false. Cesario's biggest problem was always that she was never considered an A-list skater, even within the US -- no matter how she skated. That would have undermined her in either system, especially under the previous, ineluctably-given-to-bias, 6.0 system. In the current system, her peak was too late to be taken seriously by judges trying to stay within the corridor on PCS. (There's also the problem of capricious technical panels.)
It's too bad, but a totally rational decision on her part.
Cesario never suggests she would have been more successful under the previous judging system. Good thing, because that would have been false. Cesario's biggest problem was always that she was never considered an A-list skater, even within the US -- no matter how she skated. That would have undermined her in either system, especially under the previous, ineluctably-given-to-bias, 6.0 system. In the current system, her peak was too late to be taken seriously by judges trying to stay within the corridor on PCS. (There's also the problem of capricious technical panels.)
It's too bad, but a totally rational decision on her part.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
However, clean skates scored well under 6.0. They aren't under the current system if there are < or edge calls. That's what hurt her, especially since she presents her programs as well as any other American woman at the moment. Nonetheless, this system does not suit her so it is understandable that she recognizes this.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I noticed SC's skating a couple of seasons ago, but I don't really feel like she improved since then or perhaps it's that others caught up to her, as well. As with many other skaters, she's way better than average, but is also competing in during a period where there are people who just skate better.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
Best
Carmen
Ever.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Carmen
Ever.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
This is the best post in this thread. She just didn't have enough! Too many others that kept improving and getting better every year. The same could also be said for Christina Gao and Caroline Z. Nice and pleasant to watch, always some kind of problem, and just not good enough.
The most frustrating thing to watch Sammi's skating was although she rarely made mistakes that were visible to the average or not so average viewer, she had too many weaknesses that added up (slow speeed, UR, edge issues, etc.) and kept her off the podium.
I watched her LP from Junior Worlds in '13 where she skated a fierce program to the Black Swan and failed to break 100 points. I remember even the Eurosport guys thought she might beat Radionova and were groaning when she came in 4th b/c they didn't even notice her mistakes.
Although her scores did improve over the next two years, she could never really break through.
I still think she has a lot to be proud of and she can say she was a Top 5 US Ladies Skater for two years in a row.
I watched her LP from Junior Worlds in '13 where she skated a fierce program to the Black Swan and failed to break 100 points. I remember even the Eurosport guys thought she might beat Radionova and were groaning when she came in 4th b/c they didn't even notice her mistakes.
Although her scores did improve over the next two years, she could never really break through.
I still think she has a lot to be proud of and she can say she was a Top 5 US Ladies Skater for two years in a row.
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2011
I know I'm late to the party, but under the current system, though she and Rachael Flatt had some similar weaknesses, there is no real comparison between her and Flatt. The US ladies field in fact was NOT that much weaker when Flatt was winning medals than it it now. The difference between these two is quite simply and plainly that Rachael could rotate her jumps 100% of the time when she was winning those medals and did not have edge issues. If Sam could have rotated her jumps and never had edge issues, she'd have some nationals medals too, I bet.
Yes, and IIRC Rachael had actually fixed her flutz EARLY in her career. Rachael's career was sadly impacted due to injuries later in her career.
That is the one thing they do have in common. I think it was hard for Samantha to get better when she was constantly getting injuries. She would have debuted at Nationals (and entered seniors internationally) earlier had it not been for the injuries. That's why she had to go for the harder -3Lo combos ( 3F-3Lo; 3Lo-3Lo) which are hard to get ratified) because her injuries kept her from doing a -3T. She was also losing points on spins because she physically couldn't do the spin positions.
I agree that top 5 for two years in a row is still a solid achievement, as some solid GP finishes. I think she did well considering her physical limitations. I don't see the point of debating whether she was "good enough." and just take her career at face value. Not everybody reaches the pinnacle -- a very limited number do, after all there's only 4 steps on a national podium, 3 everywhere else, so most will have to evaluate their career on other criteria.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Country
-
Completely disagree. Cesario is a very consistent skater (3 seasons in a row she never fell on a jump and in fact the only jump she ever had a significant problem on in major competition was the 3-3 combo) with very good performance ability. In a time when skating a clean, exciting SP with 3Lutz+2Toe and 3Flip and a clean, exciting LP with 6-7 Triples put you really far up (with a flutz and minor underrotations not mattering as much), Cesario certainly would have found success. Frankly, she could have WON a couple U.S. Championships if you transport her 2013-2014 level of skating back 5+ years.
In terms of what she did in these past few years under the actual current scoring system, I think she has been undervalued too. For me she deserved to medal at 2013 Nationals, she deserved to medal at 2013 Junior Worlds, and she deserved to medal at Skate America 2014. In general her scores have usually been lower than what she is really putting out there on the ice. That's very demotivating. Some things have been said about her that are simply not true as well, like "having no transitions". I remember someone here linked to a video of a guy calling her program "nothing but sassy elbows" and at one point he even said "look at how there's nothing going on between the element" when she had done a great split jump just 2 seconds prior! Also, the amount of practice and mental fortitude that it takes to position your body to do "sassy elbows" beautifully and in time with the music should not be discounted. Yeah, she really shouldn't have reused Carmen this past season and the choreography got a bit more mechanical than the previous season, but it's ridiculous to act like she isn't a very well trained and talented skater.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
This is a good point. Once Rachel started getting hit with URs, her scores and results rather suddenly became a lot lower. Additionally, when Rachel was at her peak, she also had a 3f-3t that she could consistently land and rotate. Sam usually did pretty well in the FS simply because she rarely made any mistakes besides URs and flutzing. In the SP, though, her 3-3 attempts were often << on the second jump, with -2s and -3s in GOE because of that, so she usually wound up getting less points for her combo than she would for doing a clean 3-2. To be competitive though you really need to be doing a 3-3, or if you do a 3-2, it's expected you'll do a 3lutz either in combination or as the solo jump, which Sam wouldn't want to do because of her flutz, so it didn't leave a lot of options. Realistically, she probably would have better SP scores going for a 3lo-2lo and 3f in the second half as opposed to her 3lo-3lo or 3f-3lo, but at the same time, the international judges wouldn't really see her as a contender if she never went for the 3-3 so I guess that was her reason for trying it.
The fact that Sam's 3t nagged an old injury was very unfortunate. She did improve her URs quite a bit and often got credit for a lot of her jumps in the FS, but with 3-3lo combos....no one is going to get those ratified these days, and certainly not someone who flirts with under-rotations. If 3t didn't bother her, I bet she could have had more success in the SP doing a 3f-3t because she'd have a better chance of avoiding the << calls and the GOE penalty doesn't seem to be as harsh on jumps that are only a little short.
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2011
Hi, Blades of Passion. My post must have been unclear. I think Cesario ought to have done a fair bit better than she did, in terms of medal results. In a fair judging system (i.e., neither the current nor the previous -- god, especially not the previous), I think she would have probably have at least a couple of National bronzes and World top 10 finishes.
One of the points I meant to make in my post is her URs and edge issues are things that happen for most skaters, female and male. One big problem with the way the current judging system is applied is that judges and technical panels (succumbing to the pressure of the corridor and notions of who is a top-tier skater and who is not) evaluate skaters according to different standards. (As a note, I mean to say that this is a human error problem with the IJS; the 6.0 system is so given to bias that it is indefensible, in my view.)
This point has the potential to get off-track, but I am really just making a point about Cesario. Namely, she is a victim of bad luck. Quite possibly, I think, had Cesario not had those injuries out of the junior level, Ashley Wagner would have been the one written-off no matter how she skated. (Such a result would be have been equally undeserved.)
Last edited:
