Premier League for skaters?

Premier League format for World Championship?

I don't know if we have ever had this talk before, but apparently I have this idea about how to reward consistency in a more legitimate way.

We are still crying over skaters' consistency. Like sometimes consistent skaters don't get enough credit (why Elena Radionova's scores drop even though she's consistent), but sometimes they get too much credit (why some skaters get such huge PCS even though the choreography isn't good, just because they're consistent). Sometimes skaters don't compete the whole season, but only come for big events like Europe and WC, and still get huge credit because they're champions/legends... Do you feel giving them huge PCS seems fair to other skaters who have compete the whole season? Or sometimes skaters do poorly in almost every competition, but only peak at WC and still got huge score and medal at WC, what about those who have been trying so hard in the GPs and senior B series?

Is there any way to reward consistency BUT Not by GOE and PCS inflation?

Just image we had a more transparent and consistent scoring system, we knew all the judges and clear guidelines and there were nothing outrageous in this system. Okay this sounds surreal but just assume that we were having an objective scoring system and not many controversies. Just image it happened and we were not puzzled by PCS and GOE okay.

So what about this, we apply a scoring format like Premier League for the whole season. Each medal each competition skaters get will be converted into points. Medals in senior B also counts, but less point than senior A. In a way, it's like World Standing but these points will eventually get counted as Medals at World Championship.

For example, what if

- Gold at Senior B = 2 points, silver 1 points, bronze 0.5 point
- Gold at Senior A GP = 5 points, silver 4 points, bronze 3 points
- Gold at GPF= 7 points, silver 6 points, bronze 5 points
- Gold at Euro/4CC = 9 points, silver 8 points, bronze 7 points

Then at WC we might have different way to score:
- Win the SP at WC = 8 points, second 6 points, third 4 points.
- Win the LP at WC = 12 points, second 10 points, third 8 points.

All these scores will be used to determine the final standings at World Championship. So one who gathers the highest score throughout the season will be world champion. The same applies for podium and final standing overall.

I think the World Champion should be someone who is consistent throughout the season relatively. For example I think this season the most consistent skaters of the season won (Liza, Javi, P/C and D/R are all relatively consistent) and I think this is very good for the sport. But it's not like we always have this situation happen every year. Sometimes the one who won isn't consistent at all and might have many disasters over the season suddenly get the best result overall. I think these inconsistent but brilliant skaters should get rewards, but not the highest rewards.

So skaters who have been consistent throughout the season might still get rewards, skaters who have competed the whole season in both senior B and A also get rewards, and maybe this format will encourage skaters to join more competitions as possible?

What do you think? It's just an idea and just an example I can think of at the moment, not the exact format that could be useful in reality. But I think it's interesting format to discuss.

Meoima said:

We are still crying over skaters' consistency.

Click to expand...

Who is still crying over this?

Meoima said:

Elena and Liza get such huge PCS even though the choreography isn't good...

Click to expand...

I think Elena's and Liza's choreography is fine, and at least "good".

A little confused by this topic. Aren't some of the highest PCS scores this season awarded to the most inconsistent skaters? (i.e. Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold, Jeremy Abbott, Yuzuru Hanyu, etc)...

sabinfire said:

Who is still crying over this?

Click to expand...

Isn't consistency always the issue we are talking about?

sabinfire said:

I think Elena's and Liza's choreography is fine, and at least "good".

Click to expand...

I think Elena's and Liza's choreography as so and so. At least if you compare their choreography to Satoko and Ashley LP.
You know I like Elena and Liza more. So of course I root for them more than other ladies.
But objectively, do I think their programs as masterpiece? No.
Should they get more PCS at least in choreography than Satoko and Ashley? Personally I don't think so. But they are consistent, should they get reward for their consistency? YES. But not in PCS. That's my point.

In short, I want to see they reward consistency in a different way, not in PCS.

sabinfire said:

A little confused by this topic. Aren't some of the highest PCS scores this season awarded to the most inconsistent skaters? (i.e. Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold, Jeremy Abbott, Yuzuru Hanyu, etc)...

Click to expand...

You didn't read this part???

meoima said:

Just image we had a more transparent and consistent scoring system, we knew all the judges and clear guidelines and there were nothing outrageous in this system. Okay this sounds surreal but just assume that we were having an objective scoring system and not many controversies. Just image it happened and we were not puzzled by PCS and GOE okay.

Click to expand...

Anyways IMO Hanyu is not inconsistent. For 5 years of his senior years he often placed from 4 to 1st. That is not inconsistent at all, given how inconsistent men field has always been. Javi this season was very consistent, too.

Meoima said:

I think Elena's and Liza's choreography = average. At least if you compare their choreography to Satoko and Ashley LP.

Click to expand...

I don't care for either of those two in choreography, so we will need to disagree on that one. Sadly, even technically I can't get behind them there, either.

Meoima said:

You didn't read this part???

Click to expand...

You're assuming I have the same opinion that you do. I actually had few issues with the TES/PCS scores this season (even when Yuzu fell 5 times in one program and still received higher PCS than anyone else).

sabinfire said:

I don't care for either of those two in choreography, so we will need to disagree on that one. Sadly, even technically I can't get behind them there, either.
You're assuming I have the same opinion that you do.

Click to expand...

My point is not about whose choreography is better. It's just some example (like why skater A don't get good PCS for their choreography etc).

My point is, should we reward consistency in a different way? And just image we have no issue about the PCS whatsoever. Because this is not about any particular skaters. This is about rewarding consistency.

Now why is that Elena Radionova score didn't get higher along with the season? I find it puzzling. She has been consistent, should she get more rewards for being so amazingly consistent? I think yes. But what to reward?
Liza, on the other hand, get rewards for her consistency and her difficulty. Note that I have no problem with Liza. This season it's ideal for the final standing because the most consistent skaters won.

BUT just image,

Elena didn't do anything throughout the season, and only appeared at WC, and skated really well to place 1st in SP and LP.
Liza on the other hand, skated well throughout the season, but had a terrible flu at WC, she still skated well, but not enough to place 1st in SP or LP.

Who should get more rewards? In this case I think Liza should get more rewards.

What do you think?

Meoima said:

BUT just image,

Elena didn't do anything throughout the season, and only appeared at WC, and skated really well to place 1st in SP and LP.
Liza on the other hand, skated well throughout the season, but had a terrible flu at WC, she still skated well, but not enough to place 1st in SP or LP.

Who should get more rewards? In this case I think Liza should get more rewards.

What do you think?

Click to expand...

Sadly, I am more confused than ever.

Didn't Elena have the flu? And Liza placed 1st in the SP and LP?

Well, yes, I would agree that Liza would get more rewards in any event.

sabinfire said:

Sadly, I am more confused than ever.
Didn't Elena have the flu? And Liza placed 1st in the SP and LP?
Well, yes, I would agree that Liza would get more rewards in any event.

Click to expand...

I said "image", so I didn't say that was what happened. It's a hypothesis! It's a big series of What if.

Sorry English is not my native langue so it's not easy to illustrate my points.

So in a dream scenario, in which the most consistent skaters of this season suddenly got ill, and still did quite well but not on her usual level, should she lose her championship title to some skater who suddenly skated good but previously had always been inconsistent (or worst, didn't do any events throughout the season)??

In premier league, it's like this: Chelsea (or any team that has become champion), for example, don't always win, they lose now and then, but overall they become champion because they have won the most amount of matches.

My idea is that, could we apply that format to FS?

Meoima said:

So in a dream scenario, in which the most consistent skaters of this season suddenly got ill, and still did quite well but not on her usual level, should she lose her championship title to some skater who suddenly skated good but previously had always been inconsistent (or worst, didn't do any events throughout the season)??

Click to expand...

Ahh, okay, I think I get it now.

I think the results of any individual competition should be based solely on the performance at that particular competition, in any sport. If athletes cannot rise to the occasion when it matters most, they do not deserve to win simply because they had a few other minor victories in other previous competitions.

Consistency should have nothing whatsoever to do with the scoring or result of a competition. The only thing that matters is exactly what you do on the day of competition.

I find it strange that you complain about consistency not being rewarded (in terms of a skater who placed well throughout the season not being properly judged), because that has a MASSIVE impact on the scores, much more than it should. So many of the judges are lemmings and hold people up at a given competition based upon their recent results (amongst other things that should not factor).

If you're advocating a better reward for people who skate in a good amount of competitions and show consistency through the whole season, sure, that would great. But where would the money come from?

sabinfire said:

Ahh, okay, I think I get it now.
I think the results of any individual competition should be based solely on the performance at that particular competition, in any sport. If athletes cannot rise to the occasion when it matters most, they do not deserve to win simply because they had a few other minor victories in other previous competitions.

Click to expand...

Do you think it's really fair? For example some skaters never care to come to GPs, just go out without injuries, and get the medal?

I mean in Olympic I can the idea of "skater of the night/performance of the night" etc. So I can get why the best skater don't always win in the Olympic (Kwan ) but for World Championship, we encourage skater to go from competition to competition, to suffer jet lag, adjust to new environment rapidly etc... There must be some way to rewards all of these effort IMO.

I think World Champion of the year should be someone who have raise to the occasions many times during the season, not just one time. So in this season it's very fair to me that all champions are those who have been the most consistent. But what if next season it's different?

Blades of Passion said:

Consistency should have nothing whatsoever to do with the scoring or result of a competition. The only thing that matters is exactly what you do on the day of competition.

Click to expand...

Now, that's also my point. BUT this is exactly why I want better reward for consistency:

Blades of Passion said:

I find it strange that you complain about consistency not being rewarded (in terms of a skater placing well throughout the season), because that has a MASSIVE impact on the scores, much more than it should. So many of the judges are lemmings and hold people up at a given competition based upon their recent results (amongst other things that should not factor).

Click to expand...

Exactly because of that I hope they reward consistency in a different way. Not by holding up consistent skaters PCS, and even TES too. I want something more transparent.

Blades of Passion said:

If you're advocating a better reward for people who skate in a good amount of competitions and show consistency through the whole season, sure, that would great. But where would the money come from?

Click to expand...

Well, dreams are free you know.

I absolutely disagree in replacing the World Championship with a premier league format.
That is what is interesting about WC or EC etc. is that technically everyone has a chance! You have to skate you best the d day.
Besides this system wouldn't change anything regarding the problem in judging PCS.

However if we want to reward consistent skaters throughout the year, I am ok with adding this format. For example like in ski, where you have the World Championship which is one competition (where you have world champion, silver medalist and bronze medalist) and then the World Cup which takes into account all competitions in the year and where you have a winner, 2nd and 3rd of the world cup.

I think a premier league format might encourage skaters to participate in competitions more often, like Senior B for example.

Blades of Passion said:

Consistency should have nothing whatsoever to do with the scoring or result of a competition. The only thing that matters is exactly what you do on the day of competition.

I find it strange that you complain about consistency not being rewarded (in terms of a skater who placed well throughout the season not being properly judged), because that has a MASSIVE impact on the scores, much more than it should. So many of the judges are lemmings and hold people up at a given competition based upon their recent results (amongst other things that should not factor).

If you're advocating a better reward for people who skate in a good amount of competitions and show consistency through the whole season, sure, that would great. But where would the money come from?

Click to expand...

I fully agree.
Judges are only human, but they should try to judge each performances as objective as possible, without thinking about past performances.

Regarding the premier league: it could be done rather easily, they're already points for each competition. We know that f.e. Elizaveta T. would have won such a "cup" this season. Winning it would have to be attractive, meaning it would have to bring money and reputation. There are sports like f.e. skiing where the world cup is something, skiers are very eager to win it.

Meoima said:

I think a premier league format might encourage skaters to participate in competitions more often, like Senior B for example.

Click to expand...

IIRC the ISU tried something like this a few years ago by maintaining a season ranking separate from the worlds standings, etc., and then giving a cash prize at the end (I think it was $50,000?) The express purpose was to encourage skaters to participate in B events and also in Four Continents, which the top skaters usually skipped. I believe that they discontinued the program because they ran out of money.

Mathman said:

IIRC the ISU tried something like this a few years ago by maintaining a season ranking separate from the worlds standings, etc., and then giving a cash prize at the end (I think it was $50,000?) The express purpose was to encourage skaters to participate in B events and also in Four Continents, which the top skaters usually skipped. I believe that they discontinued the program because they ran out of money.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the info. So everything comes down to money issue. :hopelessness: well what can we expect.

Some sort of League would be great, if there were the money, as an add on to the sport.

However, it infuriates me when skaters get held up and I try to be fair enough to object, if it is obvious, even when it benefits my faves. Consistency should have nothing to do with championships. Tbh, that would make even one more thing to alienate a casual viewer. People expect a sport to have ups and downs and even giant killing. Imagine the outrage if Wrexham had beaten Arsenal in the FA cup in the early 90s and then the FA had said, "Well, but Arsenal is usually a winning top side so we will adjust that result". Yes, by contrast, figure skating is a judged sport, but one doesn't want legitimised fiddling with what happens on the day. I think there should be more effort to get the judges not to mark on reputation, not efforts to build it into judging legitimately.

If not cash prizes - maybe an extra little medal ceremony with bouquets, &c; perhaps at the beginning of the WCH gala or something? Not the same of course, but at least a little bit of recognition?

Meoima said:

I think a premier league format might encourage skaters to participate in competitions more often, like Senior B for example.

Click to expand...

BTW, the Challenger Series offers incentives -- extra World Standings points compared to other internationals, as well as prize money for those who finish at the top of the series standings.
In 2015, skaters are allowed to enter a maximum of three Challenger events instead of two.

The GP series rewards consistency over two events, in determining who qualifies for the GPF.

The ISU World Standings are a form of rewarding consistency, in determining starting orders and GP assignments, for example.

daphenaxa said:

I absolutely disagree in replacing the World Championship with a premier league format.
That is what is interesting about WC or EC etc. is that technically everyone has a chance! You have to skate you best the d day.
Besides this system wouldn't change anything regarding the problem in judging PCS.

However if we want to reward consistent skaters throughout the year, I am ok with adding this format. For example like in ski, where you have the World Championship which is one competition (where you have world champion, silver medalist and bronze medalist) and then the World Cup which takes into account all competitions in the year and where you have a winner, 2nd and 3rd of the world cup.

Click to expand...

I agree with this 100%. The competitions should stay as is, but it would be cool to have an "overall winner" based on points (However, the points system should be better than we currently have for World Standings--those value Senior B's too much in comparison to tough events).

I don't really mind people not going to Senior Bs/sitting out the GP, ect. It's their business when they want to compete. If they can still show up at Worlds like Yuna Kim in 2013, more power to them.

I think consistency is its own reward, in 99% of cases. Even though Elena skated ill at Worlds, she still came back with the bronze medal. Too bad she couldn't get silver, but her medals at GPF/Europeans are their own reward. Meanwhite, inconsistent skaters (Gracie) and skaters who don't seem to peak at the right moments (Ashley) still came back empty-handed.

Sure, we have some cases of people messing up all year then showing up at Worlds and winning, but that's actually quite rare. Someone like Denis Ten, who does it every year--I think he just knows how to peak at the right time, rather than simply being lucky.

One random thing: Meoima, Javi was not consistent this year. In fact, he was kinda a mess except at Cup of Russia and Worlds. However, many people--myself included--were happy to see him win Worlds because he was the best at that competition. I see it as the culmination of the hard work and good performances of many years--not just this particular one.

As the one who helped inspire this thread's creation, all I really want is for the Grand Prix to not be the Grand Preseason. I feel like the Grand Prix is a better competitive structure for figuring out who is the best and I dislike how the world championships end up nullifying that result. I don't like the huge gap in time between the Grand Prix Final and the World Championships and it's complete 50-50 voodoo whether skaters actually improve over that gap. I find the later part of the season rather boring as despite the prestige it's essentially a rerun(I don't think I'm the only one going from skating website web traffic stats).

Yeah there are instances where skaters who are consistent are given a little boost... but there are also instances where a skater does poorly and is overly rewarded when they finally pull it together(especially if they're a powerful feds #1)... and there are also instances where skaters with past accomplishments skip the Grand Prix which makes the Grand Prix less grand and it gives them a bit of an unfair "late movers advantage" where they can scout their competition and position themselves(though maybe it's better this way if the alternative is them completely quitting...).

Now why is that Elena Radionova score didn't get higher along with the season? I find it puzzling. She has been consistent, should she get more rewards for being so amazingly consistent? I think yes. But what to reward?
Liza, on the other hand, get rewards for her consistency and her difficulty. Note that I have no problem with Liza. This season it's ideal for the final standing because the most consistent skaters won.

Click to expand...

Radionova's score did get higher though for the most part. Her SP score declined 1 point from Euros to Worlds but that's pretty much a rounding error and she wasn't Russia's #1 by then. Liza's SP score was practically the same throughout the grand prix and only rose about a 1.5 points at Euros. As far as the LP goes, I think they were a quite generous with Radionova's LP at Euros where (from memory) I think some of her previous performances were better... while Liza's Euro LP may have been her best. And this is tangential, but having seem live cams of their LPs it seems like Radionova is more telegenic but Liza is a better in person performer.