Score This: Midori Ito's Programs

moriel said:

And she would be virtually tied with Liza (132-is FP) in 2015 i guess

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Liza was overscored, both by the judges and because the current CoP doesn't punish mistakes enough in the GOE's, but yes...

gkelly said:

3S<

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No, honey, no. :scowl:

drivingmissdaisy said:

With proper planning and clean execution, I'm sure Midori could get close to 80 in the SP and surpass 150 in the LP.

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Yes no doubt. Under the post-2010 rules, I imagine she'd be doing 3Lutz+3Toe, 3Axel, 3Flip in the SP and then 3Lutz, 3Axel+2Toe, 3Flip // 3Axel, 3Loop, 2Axel+1Loop+3Sal, 3Toe+3Toe for the LP. Unbeatable if she hit.

Midori Ito was clearly a CoP type skater who just happened to be 20 years ahead of her time. She was the first to go for the full arsenal of triple jumps, 7 triple FS and even 3A - at that time, her jump layout was as difficult as even the men. Certainly her deep edges and speed and certainly her transitions will put most of the current crop of skaters to shame. Unfortunately, she was done in by compulsory figures, inconsistency and also partially that in her era, judges generally favour the beautify lines and feminine type skaters in presentation scoring over the more energetic and powerful sort like Ito and Harding. If she is competing in our CoP era, she would have easily outjumped and outskated most ladies and the big smile and energy would have been better rewarded in the PE/IN.

Imagine the sort of jump layout she could put in her SP and LP
SP: 3A, 3Lz-3T, 3F out of steps.
LP: 3Lz, 3A-2T, 3A, // 3F, 2A-1R-3S, 3R, 3T-3T as suggested by BoP

Virtually unbeatable if she hits. She could even decide to go for 3Lz-3T instead of 3T-3T and she would have incorporated the highest possible triple jump base value. Certainly she would have outscored most in TR and the PE will no doubt also be high. Pity, it is unlikely we will ever get another Ito.

Worth remembering that Ito did a 2Lo3Lo combo in the SP, so that is another skill she had. And the 3Lo was insanely good compared to other combos done by other skaters with 3Lo as second jump in a combo.

Blades of Passion said:

This works for any competition, since variable Long Program layouts are inherently included:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-the-Scoring-System-and-Improving-Ice-Skating

You can just remove the jump combination bonuses if you want easier math (or assign your own bonus of a half-point or full point depending on difficulty). For casual judging you can also just assign levels to elements based upon your own decision, without specifically reading all of the rules, since quality is worth more points than levels.

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Using a conglomeration of the actual CoP rules from various eras, but with multiple "choreography sequences" allowed and counting the extra double jumps as choreography and the 2Axel+3Sal as a two-jump combination, here would be my score for Midori Ito's 1988 Olympic LP:

LSp1, +1.5 GOE = 2.25
3Lutz, +2.5 GOE = 7.75
3Flip, +2.5 GOE = 7.25
CCoSp2, +1 GOE = 3.5
2Axel+3Sal, +2 GOE = 9.2
ChSq, +1.5 GOE = 3.5
(halfway bonus)
3Loop, +2.5 GOE = 7.25
FCSp1, +1 GOE = 2.5
3Toe+3Toe +2.5 GOE = 10.55
ChSq, +1 GOE = 3.0
FSSp1, +1.5 GOE = 2.75
3Sal, +1 GOE = 5.65
2Axel +2.5 GOE = 4.88

SS: 8.0 (builds and maintains speed well, shows some good edges, could have more control)
TR: 8.5 (there are a lot of transitions actually! Great flow out of the jumps always helps here too)
P/E: 8.75 (could have better posture, project a little more at times, but no doubt it was a confident and very lively performance)
CH: 8.25 (a little simple, more extension would help, but most everything has a purpose; only the 2Loop after the flying sit feels out of place)
IN: 8.25 (follows the music quite well, some moments could be bigger or more personal)

Tech = 70.03
PCS = 66.8

TOTAL = 136.83

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Wow, that's some generous GOE you're giving there. The jumps are huge with great flow, but most of them are not in the 2.5 worthy range (as in half the judges giving +2 and half giving +3). Opening lutz is arguably a 2.5, yes (I'd have given a +3 myself). The 3F arguably has an edge call (!) going into it and a leg wrap, and the 2A+3S sequence lacks control on the landing, so I'd give both of those a +1 to +1.5. The loop has a lovely spread eagle into it, but I'd only give it a +2 because of the somewhat hunched landing position. The 3-3 I agree is worth +2.5 given its execution and placement in the program and the Ina Bauer transitioning into it. Also agree with just a +1 on the 3S. Final 2A I'd give only a +1.5 or 2, because of the leg wrap. I'd give the opening layback no more than a +1 because the arch/leg position could be better and the number of rotations is basic by today's standards (centering is good though); the flying camel wasn't the greatest camel position (like her spiral it lacks flexibility and the toe should be pointed more) and the number of rotations is average but the arms were lovely (I'd give it 0 to +0.5, a few judges giving it +1 is fine, but it was a rather run of the mill camel spin); the flying sit though had great height and centering and is indeed worth about +1.5.

I agree with your PCS scores, although the transitions is too high. She does actually have a lot of transitions as you said, but I'd have it around an 8 since she doesn't have many transitions exiting her jumps. Some of her transitions like her spirals and split jumps and ina bauers are a bit weak too in terms of extension/edge/execution. Her CH I'd actually have a bit higher, around 8.5 or 8.75, as it's a very well-designed program with wonderful highlights and well balanced technical difficulty (I also love the double jumps thrown in there as choreographic highlights).

It certainly scores above 130, but 136 is slightly too high. I think when it's all said and done, it should score about 132-133 by today's standards.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Wow, that's some generous GOE you're giving there. The jumps are huge with great flow, but most of them are not in the 2.5 worthy range (as in half the judges giving +2 and half giving +3).

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Julia was getting +2's on her jumps during the Olympic year so I don't see why Midori wouldn't get almost straight 3's.

also imho its ok to be generous, since if she skated under COP, her programs would be more COP fit for sure, so she would be getting more points here and there

drivingmissdaisy said:

Julia was getting +2's on her jumps during the Olympic year so I don't see why Midori wouldn't get almost straight 3's.

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^--some real talk here.

moriel said:

also imho its ok to be generous, since if she skated under COP, her programs would be more COP fit for sure, so she would be getting more points here and there

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Indeed, she did a lot of transitions under a system that didn't reward it. Count the crossovers in her programs versus Tonya's and it is clear that Midori shows a lot more variety in her movement across the ice, yet Tonya could match Midori's presentation marks when clean.

drivingmissdaisy said:

Julia was getting +2's on her jumps during the Olympic year so I don't see why Midori wouldn't get almost straight 3's.

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FWIW-That is no knock on Julia. She did get some well deserved +2's if you use and apply the GOE guidelines for awarding points but sadly for fans like myself she got far more 1's and averaged under a 1.0 GOE that season. So it wasn't a normal thing for her to get +2's on jumps with the exception being her combinations which were her strength that season...at least jump wise. So yes....you are correct she did get (some ) +2's but I think we know Ito would score far more +2's and several +3's and carry a much stronger average than Julia.

Unfortunately being a high and powerful jumper under the current scoring system doesn't really give as much of an advantage today as it did back under 6.0 where judges mainly just ranked skaters. So they wouldn't necessarily be free and clear but would have a considerable advantage if clean. Regardless...under CoP judges don't award GOE, or aren't supposed to award GOE by making comparisons. Instead they look at the bullets used and make judgement calls based on those. I'd imagine Ito would be closer to 3's on average and Julia would still get mostly 1's and occasional 2's like before. I wish I had time to score one of these programs myself. Looks like fun.

I'd love to see an Ito vs Liza showdown. That would be much more intersting than comparing her with Julia.

gkelly said:

Those who think it's fun can join in. Those who aren't interested can ignore it. I'll start a new thread.

How many programs should we include? We'll make sure Midori is among them. All programs from the same competition from her heyday? Or comparative between eras?

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I was just thinking in general. As for me, I think any programs, whether they're from 1980 or 2015 (plus, with present programs, it'd be interesting to see how a panel of fan marks compare to official marks; huge V/T fan but I found myself flabbergasted at how they–and S/S–were getting those components). Maybe like a "skater of the month" or "competition of the month" type of thing.

I also think giving marks under the old system is fun too (it's does something inside to see scoring in that context of 6.0) so maybe that too sometimes. I especially like scoring 6.0 programs using 6.0/ordinals (since it really is difficult sometimes to use IJS for those programs) and IJS for IJS programs. 6.0 short programs are much easier to score. With the free skates, I tend to just ignore the invalid elements under todays rules.

I suppose we'd have to designate someone as a caller to make the base values uniform? I sometimes struggle doing it with spins, really, and am much more comfortable with level criteria for pairs elements.

Folks, I want to thank you all for your thoughts, your analysis and your math!! Also, am so glad that you've taken your "summer assignment" seriously and with great gusto.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Wow, that's some generous GOE you're giving there. The 3F arguably has an edge call (!) going into it and a leg wrap and the 2A+3S sequence lacks control on the landing, so I'd give both of those a +1 to +1.5

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Her Flip starts on an outside edge, but it moves back over by the time her toepick is in. Not completely textbook technique but in the end nothing explicitly wrong with it. There's something to be said for the linear jump technique, actually, because it makes the jumps straighter and more secure. You don't really want to take off from much of an inside edge on the Flip, because that can swing you around rather wildly.

As for the wrap, there's nothing wrong with it when you are jumping this high. A wrapped jump can show a lack of control but that is most certainly not the case here. Also, scientifically, a wrap means you are slowing your rotation down, which actually makes a jump harder. It's simply a "stylistic" choice in this regard. Everyone doesn't need to jump exactly the same way.

This is one of the best Triple Flip jumps ever and I even considered a +3 for it. There is hardly any other lady, or even many men, who could replicate that jump. The reasons you've tried to knock it is just backward Cinquanta-CoP logic that has been killing the sport.

As for the 2A+3S, it's true that she doesn't have the absolute best control at the end, but at the same time she is doing a transition directly out of the jump. The distance she gets on the combo is amazing (with good height too!) and the rhythm of the jumps is perfectly controlled. Compare this to ANY of the half loop+3Sal combos we've seen in CoP era and you'll see that nobody gets that much distance, nor that same pop into the half loop and control for the last jump (Joannie Rochette would actually come the closest with some of her 3Toe+half loop+3Sal executions). It's so good. Particularly if you compare to the Russian girls who try these combos. They should generally be getting 0 GOE, because the jumps are nothing more an adequate and they don't even really JUMP in the last part of the combo, they just spin off the ice. So, yes, this 2Axel+half loop+3Sal from Midori Ito definitely deserves a +2 GOE in comparison.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

The loop has a lovely spread eagle into it, but I'd only give it a +2 because of the somewhat hunched landing position.

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The slightly hunched position is the only reason I don't give a full +3 and just +2.5. Difficult lead-in, huge jump, perfect rotation, and good flow on the landing with an extended free leg.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I'd give the opening layback no more than a +1 because the arch/leg position could be better and the number of rotations is basic by today's standards (centering is good though)

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Leg position?!? Look at how her leg is held up and the foot is parallel to the ice. That is excellent and something almost nobody does anymore, since CoP fails to reward the classic attitude position. There are people getting +3's for their laybacks now who only ever keep the leg low/bent (when it isn't catch-footed) and who never get the free foot into that position. Look at Radionova, Pogorilaya, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaia - none of them achieve the classic position.

Sam-Skwantch said:

FWIW-That is no knock on Julia.

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Not at all. My point was Midori has fewer deficiencies in her jumps than other skaters who earn high GOE, so she would presumably earn high GOE as well.

The slightly hunched position is the only reason I don't give a full +3 and just +2.5. Difficult lead-in, huge jump, perfect rotation, and good flow on the landing with an extended free leg.

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This is interesting. Giving a 2.5. Maybe judges should be able to give GOE in this type of format and even down to the .25 would seem fair enough. We allow them to do so on PCS so why not on GOE? I also wish to see up to 4pts GOE. It's easy to make a case for a jump to get +2 using the current guidelines. Even with the guidelines as they stand now +4 would be fairly hard to reach and would benefit people with good technique far more than the current system does. More or less I don't think people getting 1's and 2's are over scored so much as I feel people getting +3's are underscored.

The half intervals for GOE definitely need to happen and the guidelines for GOE's should be changed. This is what I have proposed in my CoP modification book:

New guidelines for giving +GOE on jumps:

1. Good height (amazing height counts double)
2. Good distance (amazing distance counts double)
3. Difficult entry (extremely difficult entry counts double)
4. Difficult air position / delay in rotation
5. Rotation completed entirely in the air
6. Excellent flow out of landing
7. Excellent extension on landing / difficult exit
8. Matched to the musical structure and good control throughout

Each of these points must be balanced against all negative GOE points. A jump that is "in the positive" by 2 points can receive a +.5 GOE grade. For each additional positive point, the GOE grade can increase by an additional +.5, up to 6 points equaling +2.5 GOE. 8 points should be achieved for +3 GOE.