If Adelina Sotnikova returns | Page 19 | Golden Skate

If Adelina Sotnikova returns

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RABID

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Will you stop beating her up over that? It's getting old, this slamming Adelina for every choice she does (or doesn't) make.

Many believe Yuna set the wheels in motion for her eventual Olympic defeat because of her absence from Grand Prix events. I would even go so far as to say she won 2013 Worlds begrudgingly; she never gave the judges an excuse there.
 

leafygreens

Final Flight
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Mar 7, 2011
The bottom line is that Sochi judging of the women's event was outrageous and those who defend it are equally outrageous. Whether it was fraudulent judging or the panel just getting carried away, it's outrageous. So maybe she did deserve to win. Fine. But she's significantly better than three of the greatest ever in the sport? No. Unfortunately for her, she won't be taken seriously again. Poor thing, really, but good luck to her.

Agreed.

That's just harmful attitude for the sport, imo.
It reminds me of boxing a little bit, where top boxers are avoiding each other for years (sometimes the whole careers) to preserve their records and fame and make money performing vs "B-class" opponents. :disagree::disapp:

Good point. The more Adelina delays serious competition (and I mean competition outside of Russia) the less I take her seriously.

I don't thik that Sarah Hughes was the best skater in 2002, when he won the SLC gold.

Not a very good comparison. The top three also faltered. There wasn't really anyone else they could give the gold to other than Sarah.
 

Ophelia

Record Breaker
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Dec 6, 2013
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, so back on topic.

If Adelina returns, I'm getting my popcorn ready for all the infighting amongst the Russian coaches to politick for their respective skaters.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, so back on topic.

If Adelina returns, I'm getting my popcorn ready for all the infighting amongst the Russian coaches to politick for their respective skaters.

Advantage Adelina ✔️
 

Tutto

Record Breaker
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:slink:

Well, this is what I think (YMMD).

First, about the competition itself, Yuna Kim is an A+ skater who gave, for her, a B+ performance. Adelina Soknikova is a B+ skater who gave an A- performance.

If Kim had not been injured in the first half of the season, I think she would have won. If she had skated like she did at 2013 Worlds (we won’t mention 2010 Olympics), she would have won. She took a risk with the Adios music, and good for her for doing so; but if she had skated to Carmen I think she would have won.

Yuna has retired and moved on to the “And She Lived Happily Ever After” stage of her life. Adelina might win some more stuff and she might not, but either way she has a cool piece of hardware to display. To keep things in perspective, Jeremy Abbott has an Olympic medal from Sochi.

Now about the judging.

It is easy to be outraged; it is hard to offer a serious remedy. But I will try. ;)

1. Under any judging system there will always be judges who are motivated by political expediency and patriotic bias. The key is to minimize the damage that such bad apples can do.

Under the IJS, two conspiring judges plus someone on the tech panel can easily toss in enough extra points here and there to leapfrog one skater over another unfairly. Under ordinal judging, this can’t happen. If five honest judges give Alice first place ordinals, while acknowledging that Suzie was pretty good, too, there is nothing that the other four crooked scoundrels can do about it, Putin or no Putin.

Thus suggestion #1:” Abandon the IJS and return to ordinal judging.

2. The other problem is that the ISU is not composed of individuals, but rather of National Federations. Each member of the ISU sends its team to the Olympics, comprising skaters, coaches, team leaders, judges and officials. It is the job of the team to bring home the goods. The judges are expected to do their part as team members, and by and large they do.

Suggestion #2: Abolish the ISU and create a new governance organization that does not have national bias hardwired into its judging process.

(Just my opinion.)

Edited to add: A sincerely apology to Newbiespectater. I am going to give myself and infraction for going off topic. :slink:



Mathman, may I just say how much I admire your posts to the point of being reluctant (but doing it anyway!) of voicing my own opinions in so totally inadequate way in compassion to yours. Thank you for your logical, precise, always informative posts!

Back to discussion, the point pro-Adelina posters seem to miss is that it is not about liking or disliking Adelina in the end of the day. The reason people are taking the matter so close to heart (so the related threads go on and on) is the injustice of what happened in Sochi which was obvious to all or at least to FS fans and that it emphasised the problems within current system.
Most of us do not blame Adelina but yes it did not help that she did not go to following Worlds, that the fed so openly supports her over other skaters, her own reactions to controversy like 'I won fair and square. The medal is mine and I will not give it back' it all adds up and creates unfavourable impression about her possibly wrongly but there it is. We'll wait & see what Adelina will see in the coming seson and opinions then either will be confirmed or changed. We'll see.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I fully agree.
And I have a problem with the "three of the greatest ever in the sport". Not that I think that the top 3 ladies of the last 7-9 years are not great, but what are the "greatest ever" in the sport? The top 5? The top 10 or the top 20? Rules, training and equipment have changed so much, we can't really say how today's skaters would compare to those 50 years ago. Jumps weren't that important 40 years ago and now they're the most important thing.
As was mentioned before, under the 6.0 system Adelina might have won also and without this uproar. All those who're bullying Adelina should start bullying the South Korean Fed (who voted against anonymous judging! and did not give Yuna Kim the support she would've needed imho) and leave Adelina alone. But if they're really only Yuna Kim fans and not figure skating fans we'll soon never hear from them again anyway. But most likely they'll stay until Adelina quits the sport, just to get their revenge on her. It's disgusting, really.

we'll see in pyeongchang. :popcorn:
 

rollerblade

Record Breaker
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Jan 12, 2014
1. Under any judging system there will always be judges who are motivated by political expediency and patriotic bias. The key is to minimize the damage that such bad apples can do.

Under the IJS, two conspiring judges plus someone on the tech panel can easily toss in enough extra points here and there to leapfrog one skater over another unfairly. Under ordinal judging, this can’t happen. If five honest judges give Alice first place ordinals, while acknowledging that Suzie was pretty good, too, there is nothing that the other four crooked scoundrels can do about it, Putin or no Putin.

Thus suggestion #1:” Abandon the IJS and return to ordinal judging.

2. The other problem is that the ISU is not composed of individuals, but rather of National Federations. Each member of the ISU sends its team to the Olympics, comprising skaters, coaches, team leaders, judges and officials. It is the job of the team to bring home the goods. The judges are expected to do their part as team members, and by and large they do.

Suggestion #2: Abolish the ISU and create a new governance organization that does not have national bias hardwired into its judging process.

We need Richard Hendricks to come up with an algorithm so we can have robots do the judging instead of humans. No more politics or bias. The robots will also detect "undesirable" features such as leg wrap, mule kick, hunched shoulder, hip waggle, butt spin, pre-rotation, wrong edge, and so forth. A Dick-Button-approved Layback Recognition should also be created. :laugh: :laugh:
 

witcher

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 12, 2015
OMG! :) What do you think what is the main reason why the skaters want to compete in the Grand Prix? Because they can earn money. ;)
Well, if you wipe the ice several times, you probably ain't gonna medal in today's strong field. Then, any fourth place is worth 3k$, no Grand Prix Final and big harm in reputation and future PCS. Being sponsored by Nike, I'm pretty sure these numbers and risk involved are not that appealing to Adelina, don't you think? :rolleye:
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Heh... you know that I like you and respect you Mathsman, but I am amused that you failed to see the irony of the TR quote would have been more appropriate to address it to the partisan audience and slanted judging panel at Sochi as a reminder of fairness and equal respect should apply to ALL sportsmen, not just the one that been gifted the most coveted prize of all that many disagreed…

I got the irony but I was swept away by your prose. :rock:

Interestingly, though, if you read the entirety of Roosevelt's speech, you're right, he wasn't talking about the role of the active observer and perceptive critic, but rather about the cynic who just sits back and sneers at the efforts and accomplishments of others. The lines just before the famous quote say that the most worthless sort of fellow is:

...the man who sneers alike at both criticism and performance.

os186 said:
Also if Reagan had really been such a Peggy Flemming fan, I can't believe he'd find the SP score make much sense either, seeing Send in the clown (for me at least) recall the type of classical ladies style from Flemming more than anyone else.

:yes: The dress alone…

See, that's what I have been saying all along. Go back to ordinal judging, and it's clear that Kim's short program is the one that satisfies the soul and is "what figure skating is all about." But no! Here come all those hundredths of a point to confuse the issue.

os168 said:
“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.” -- Winston Churchill

I tried to find a picture of Winston Churchill skating, but evidentially he was more of a swimmer than a skater. (I'll spare you the pictures. ;) ) But here are some future champions getting a good start at the Winston Churchill (outdoor) skating rink in Calgary, Canada.

https://edmontontourism.cdn.prismic...ore-edmonton_skating_things-to-do_outdoor.jpg

I do, though, think that Sir Winston would be the first to say that it is not enough to say, "ouch, that hurts." Criticism owes us it's thoughts on, "What are we going to do about it?"
 

russell30

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Don't know if has already been mentioned? but Adelina Sotnikova is confirmed for Japan Open according to JO Website.

So she is returning!!
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
I think it's a fair criticism of her TBH. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on injury last year but why on earth isn't someone who is serious about a comeback made available to be on the GP and instead relying on a host pick which lets face it is technically a favor from the fed. Fans of other Russian ladies skaters can and do feel a bit jaded when the fed comes out in the weeks leading up to the Nationals making statements saying no matter how well they perform Adelina will be given a chance in private skates to take an international assignment from them. Not that I wanted Yulia's season to continue but her international success, even that season :laugh: , matched any of Adelina's to that point(December). In the end Adelina hadn't even returned to the ice until a few days before Nationals and wasn't even attempting jumps. Let's not forget Adelina's prior WC results and the fact the third spot was made available because of Yulia and Anna. Thank God Anna got that spot.

I don't think calling out Adelina to compete like the rest is in the least bit unfair. That is all. Especially considering her international track record outside of Sochi. I began to feel a bit burned when she was perfectly healthy and skipped worlds. As if she was more tired and burnt out than Yulia or Gracie who skated in more events that season. :think:

Not sure if she could have been eligible for the GP had she chosen so, but she wasn't guaranteed any spots, not being high enough on the world standing and that kinda jazz.

Also, I assume you mean wolds 2014? I would have liked her to compete, but most OGMs skip the following worlds. So it's not as if it was unexpected she didn't skate there.
 

koatcue

Medalist
Joined
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Country
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That's just harmful attitude for the sport, imo.
It reminds me of boxing a little bit, where top boxers are avoiding each other for years (sometimes the whole careers) to preserve their records and fame and make money performing vs "B-class" opponents. :disagree::disapp:

Are you speaking about Radionova and Medvedeva at Rostelecup?
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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There is no reason a skater who suffers an injury for a season shouldn't be eligible to return to the GP. Regardless of if they are a returning Olympic champion or not. Add that to my list of figure skating complaints :)

I thought that the Rusian Federation didn't make her eligible though and had a press release about her and Plushy not being made available for GP assignments but instead likely to get Rostelecom Cup spots.
 

solani

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Austria
we'll see in pyeongchang. :popcorn:
That's probably too early for my little theory. Especially when Adelina competes in Pyeongchang. ;) And I don't know how I would feel about that, excited that she's made it or frantically scared that she might not get treated well. This is really a "if Adelina returns"...
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
This is the first I've heard that the evil Russian plan to cheat Yuna to allow Adelina to win dates back to 2010. But it is as viable a theory as any other.

Again you failed to provide any mildly convincing argument in your hundreds posts defend the results other than 'the judges there is right'. 1 more jump rotation, better spins wins OGM. Tell that to Mao!

My personal speculation. Russia seems smart and strategic after Salt Lake City Slutkaya loss, set long term goals/revenge by putting the right chess pieces in place way before any of the competitors came on to the scene. Starting with creation of COP, take advantage of chaos (where there's chaos, there's opportunity) from the SLC pairs controversy by placing their own Vice President of Russia skating federation as the Chairman of Technical Committee. This is neither about Yuna or Adelina. Had Yuna / Adelina not existed, there will be someone in their place benefit/loss from such a set up including various rule changes that targeted their strength and weakness to steer towards a 'desirable' outcome. All these are well within the rules of the ISU setup. Had Yuna not decide to return for her young Korean skaters, it will be Carolina and Mao to bear the burden of #1 threat to the home games glory. Same thing will just happen with different players. The problem is they really underestimated how well Yuna/Carolina/Mao or even Adelina all ends up skating so well, so they went all a bit overboard and there exposed the biases.

The thing is even had ISU been entirely innocent of 'deliberate' turning a blind eye, or in fact it REALLY was just a case of 'stars' aligned for one lucky young lady - you can't deny there is fundamentally conflict of interests at work here. Starting from the motive and incentive of the rule makers. The fact there seems lack of a transparent veto process with new rule changes, scale value changes; judging selection process; lack of transparency and accountability on these scores. ISU's insistence on plausible deniability as well as discourage anyone challenge secret judging. The fact ISU continue to deny there's controversy only breed mistrust ESPECIALLY when such manifestation of biases keeps stacking up over the years leading to such an targeted results that is outside the norm.

There should be no excuses for personal attacks on anyone, and I really feel sorry for ANYONE who has been subject to it. However, please note this is hardly an unique recent phenomenon. Kim had her own haters all over youtube when she won back in Vancouver too and this went on for many many, not just on the English forums too. It doesn't excuse anything and it is clearly out right wrong but it seems just one of those many things public people have to put up with. Things appeared to have died down after WC2013 and Sochi (more like people just gave up). It shows the best way to deal with negativity is all simply ignore them completely. Focus on yourself only. Silent them with good result is the best way to go.

-----------------

Anyway, this is my final post on this thread (Heh don't cheer all once now! :drama:)

IF Adelina returns, I'd like to see she and all those who she compete with be getting marks closer to the pre-Sochi level. To have this sport going to back to some resemblance of a fair competition for everyone, not just the major contenders from the power federations. Her LP PCS has been average around 60 prior the European Championship 2014 inflation. Depends on her program and how well she do relative to others on the day, I don't think she should be getting anymore than 60 - 63. (Some references: Julia received 60.52 at GPF final 14 with her Schindler's list program in 2nd place, Liza received 65.16 at GPF 15 coming off an inflated mark season due to Sochi effect, and enjoyed an upward momentum winning everything that season.) Like I had expressed earlier, it will be majorly upsetting to see she keep her unjustified inflated 74 + PCS keep winning competitions with 3t3t winning over 3A programs from Mao and Liza. It'd just seems wrong.

I would like the best scores go to the ones with the most fully realized musically relevant well choreographed program/performance. Skaters to win not because of any advantage to the rules/politics/reputation/where the competition is taking place/who are the judges/technical controller etc. It hasn't lost on me for 2 years in a row now the judging panel at both World Championships some how all ends up with 100% European judges. While there's nothing wrong with European judges, but clearly statistically this is abnormal. Given what happened at Sochi, how can it not be seen to favour the European skaters (Russian ladies) more than anyone else in a world?

If ISU some how do it again at upcoming worlds, then I am certain the sport's integrity (whatever is left of it) has not only dissipated. but been hoarded by old European cronies looking to cash out their pension plan for some exotic European retirement homes. ISU should be dismantled all together and reboot again with a young blue sky thinking team who is committed to grow the sport globally and implement a credible auditing system to scrutinize over score discrepancy, to minimize inflation, and set up quality assurance process to stamp out conflict of interests. Looking into revamp the judging selection system at the world's biggest competitions (GPF, WC, Olympics). Remove anonymous judging certainly and separate the sport from speed skating. The sport needs to acknowledge and learn from past controversies somehow, gather itself together, become credible and have self respect again.

KSU is not incompetent, it just chose to be incompetent for the sake of their speed skating.

:slink:
 
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drivingmissdaisy

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The thing is even had ISU been entirely innocent of 'deliberate' turning a blind eye, or in fact it REALLY was just a case of 'stars' aligned for one lucky young lady - you can't deny there is fundamentally conflict of interests at work here.

At the end of the day, six or seven of the judges likely put Adelina in 1st. That is a convincing margin and overrides any theory that a rogue judge or two had anything to do with the final placement. Even Gracie's PCS (with a fall) was within about 6 points of the leaders, so it may also have been the case that the judges wanted the skaters to win it on TES rather than a PCS cushion.
 
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