Best Ladies' Flutzes ever?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 14, 2015

Satoko does have a 3-3 (in the SP). In the LP it's not advantageous to add a 3T to her lutz, so she does two 2A+3T's (which are easy for her and get high GOE). It's the same reason Kostner had a 3-3 in her SP and a 2A+3T in her LP (and many other skaters too... for a while Julia did two 2A+3Ts in her LP).

I think Liza's scoring advantage was earned through consistent performances. And she gets high GOE on her jumps. Obviously her programs were meh choreographically, but in this sport, consistent performances can increase one's PCS monstrously. No matter how you cut it, landing the jumps are what matter at the end of the day elements wise.

And the Mishin school of thought is that you go clean with the jumps and the artistic marks will follow accordingly.

solani · Aug 14, 2015

aromaticchicken said:
I don't agree with this... if you look at many of the skaters at the very top you see that plenty have been successful without having had mastered every jump, or had 100% the best technique ever.

Mao has been plenty successful with her flutz, because the penalty she receives for it is still more advantageous than doing another solo 2A.
Yuna has been plenty successful omitting her loop
Plenty of other skaters have seen success even with this year's edge calls
Ashley was successful for a long time without a real lutz, and continues to be even with the "!"
Satoko is world silver medalist without a triple triple, even with underrotation sketchiness

I agree I think Liza received a ridiculous advantage in scoring this year when really her only strength is her jumps, but I think it's also a testament to the diversity of options sport that she was dominating last year with only a 3T-3T, not a harder triple triple, even before she added the 3A.

If people were winning solely on perfect jumps, I would be horrified. But all of the skaters above have also received plenty reward for being strong skaters, even without having the highest level of technical content.

And yes, I agree sometimes (often) PCS is really suspect and reputation based (as is TES GOE...). But that doesn't mean that the judges haven't rewarded people appropriately at least sometimes.

Satoko does a 3Lz-3T in the SP and it gets ratified and she doesn't pre-rotate the lutz as much as she does the flip, so I think this combo is a real triple-triple.
Elizaveta has very good skating skills in my opinion, very good control. Her spins are good, the programs last season suited her, so I don't think that jumps are her only strength. The question is: who is better at the moment? And she wasn't dominating until Worlds where Elena wasn't at her best. And Gracie and Ashley could have challenged her there, but they made errors.

usethis2 · Aug 14, 2015

^ Liza's spins are good? I thought they were her weakness when I watched her performance in Worlds 2015. (non-existent) Choreography notwithstanding.

But I readily agree that she is at the top of the game right now. It doesn't mean she has no room to improve, of course. I hope she gives us a memorable program that will stand the test of time.

usethis2 · Aug 14, 2015

yyyskate said:
you could do a long glide edge plus creative entry as well, that is do a core body weight change while gliding. like Gracie's charlotte position, Marin has a similar charlotte entry to her lutz in her new program too.
Whether a lutz from a long glide or a lutz from a choc tac (Han's true lutz). A true lutz is judged by how well you use your outside edge to generate the spring/momentum. COP has nothing to do with judging whether a lutz is a true lutz or not. The so-called transition steps also could not hide a bad lutz technique.

That is what I meant in the previous page. You seem to have spelled it out better than I did. Once you master the basic, you can pull off a more difficult tricks. But tricks cannot mask the lack of the proper techniques.

Sam-Skwantch · Aug 14, 2015

What things specifically are we considering basics these days? I know a skater who competes regionally who can nail clean 2lutz, 3t and 3s but have very terrible Choctaws and scratchy 3 turns even. Trust me when I say the girls with better Choctaws and 3 turns are not finishing close to her unless they have the same level of jumps as her. Point is I don't think she has her basics down and only really works on turns and edges in a class for our top level skaters once a week. People are paying coaches and for classes to see results and go as far as they can in the sport. . Her goal is to compete internationally with success.

solani · Aug 14, 2015

usethis2 said:
^ Liza's spins are good? I thought they were her weakness when I watched her performance in Worlds 2015. (non-existent) Choreography notwithstanding.

But I readily agree that she is at the top of the game right now. It doesn't mean she has no room to improve, of course. I hope she gives us a memorable program that will stand the test of time.

What's bad about her spins? She has good speed, good centering and nice positions. She might not be the best spinner out there, but it's certainly not a weakness. F.e. Carolina Kostner was a weak spinner when she was young. When I think about it I have to say: Elizaveta has no weakness, nut even a flutz. (to be on topic again

)

Sam-Skwantch · Aug 14, 2015

You shouldn't have to be the best at something to score well in it.

usethis2 · Aug 14, 2015

psusanne said:
What's bad about her spins? She has good speed, good centering and nice positions. She might not be the best spinner out there, but it's certainly not a weakness. F.e. Carolina Kostner was a weak spinner when she was young. When I think about it I have to say: Elizaveta has no weakness, nut even a flutz. (to be on topic again )

On a second thought, you are right. She has no weakness. I hope she skates like she does now until she retires.

I will get back on topic. :biggrin:

aromaticchicken · Aug 14, 2015

Sam-Skwantch said:
You shouldn't have to be the best at something to score well in it.

No, but you certainly shouldn't be beating others in TES/GOE for being shoddy at it. At Worlds 2015, Liza got better GOE than Polina Edmunds on her layback spin. I find that absurd, and ridiculous that spins are rewarded even when they're aesthetically way less pleasing, just because it's less obvious than botched jumps.

Sam-Skwantch · Aug 14, 2015

aromaticchicken said:
No, but you certainly shouldn't be beating others in TES/GOE for being shoddy at it. At Worlds 2015, Liza got better GOE than Polina Edmunds on her layback spin. I find that absurd, and ridiculous that spins are rewarded even when they're aesthetically way less pleasing, just because it's less obvious than botched jumps.

I don't take the scoring too seriously myself. I just giggled a little when Carolina's last spin at the2014 WC FS scored 4.39 compared to Julia's which got 4.93 points. As if there should be less than a point difference in the two :laugh:

Caro's Spin
https://youtu.be/oTkeMp9EY_E?t=5m1s

Julia's Spin
https://youtu.be/Ptqm2_tSiFQ?t=4m20s

AsadaFanBoy · Aug 14, 2015

Sam-Skwantch said:
I don't take the scoring too seriously myself. I just giggled a little when Carolina's last spin at the2014 WC FS scored 4.39 compared to Julia's which got 4.93 points. As if there should be less than a point difference in the two

Caro's Spin
https://youtu.be/oTkeMp9EY_E?t=5m1s

Julia's Spin
https://youtu.be/Ptqm2_tSiFQ?t=4m20s

Yes. Preach! :clap:

This one speaks truth.

solani · Aug 15, 2015

AsadaFanBoy said:
Yes. Preach!This one speaks truth.

The real problem is that spins aren't as important as jumps, never were. I think good spins affect the overall impression and will probably lead to higher PCS but that's not enough. Spins are difficult and the audience loves great spins, they should be scored higher. F.e. Carolina will never lose more than 2 points to Julia on spins per program, so there is no necessity to put in the time to try to improve them.

Best Ladies' Flutzes ever?

CanadianSkaterGuy

solani

usethis2

usethis2

Sam-Skwantch

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solani

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

usethis2

aromaticchicken

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

AsadaFanBoy

solani

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