Which ladies could land a 3A?

Skater Boy said:

I am not sure I follow I thought Canadians were pretty good lutzers. Kay Thomson, Liz Manley, Josee Chouinard, Joannie rochette all when on had wonderful triple lutzes - not just complete but huge amplitude. You will note I did not include Jennifer Robinson which shows I am fair they may not have been as consistent as yamaguchi and kwan but far more amplitude.

Click to expand...

I think it was more alluding to the fact that not a ton of Canadian women would go for the lutz. In the Chouinard/Robinson era, it was rare to see a podium where the top Canadian ladies all tried lutzes.

I mean, Robinson was Canadian champion for a long time and she herself didn't ever really get a consistent lutz (although kudos to her for nailing it in a clean SP and 1/2 in a fairly clean LP at the Olympics).

Skater Boy said:

I am not sure I follow I thought Canadians were pretty good lutzers. Kay Thomson, Liz Manley, Josee Chouinard, Joannie rochette all when on had wonderful triple lutzes - not just complete but huge amplitude. You will note I did not include Jennifer Robinson which shows I am fair they may not have been as consistent as yamaguchi and kwan but far more amplitude.

Click to expand...

To be fair.. I don't think it's entirely fair to say Michelle or Kristi had great Lutz technique either... Yes they would land them consistently, but today they might be dinged with edge calls or at the very least '!'....

aromaticchicken said:

To be fair.. I don't think it's entirely fair to say Michelle or Kristi had great Lutz technique either... Yes they would land them consistently, but today they might be dinged with edge calls or at the very least '!'....

Click to expand...

Kristi's was better but Michelle would definitely get dinged with edge calls. It's so funny how any hardcore Kwan enthusiast (i.e. most skating fans in general) get really mad when I mention Kwan's lutz, and they're like, "NO! She's perfect!" And then I try not to avoid bringing up the OGM which would just incense them further.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Kristi's was better but Michelle would definitely get dinged with edge calls. It's so funny how any hardcore Kwan enthusiast (i.e. most skating fans in general) get really mad when I mention Kwan's lutz, and they're like, "NO! She's perfect!" And then I try not to avoid bringing up the OGM which would just incense them further.

Click to expand...

You try really hard!
I think it's wrong that flutzers and lipers are treated or thought of as incomplete skaters. For some people it seems to be better to not do a jump than doing it slightly incorrect. (I could also come up with an example ... but I don't. With Kwan's OGM in the discussion already I don't want to go there.)
I think there should be extra points if a skater does 5 or 6 different triples in the free. Also for the guys (except that a guy who is doing a 4S wouldn't have to do the 3S to get the extra), as they're doing quads now some might not want to do f.e. a triple flip.

psusanne said:

You try really hard!
I think it's wrong that flutzers and lipers are treated or thought of as incomplete skaters. For some people it seems to be better to not do a jump than doing it slightly incorrect. (I could also come up with an example ... but I don't. With Kwan's OGM in the discussion already I don't want to go there.)
I think there should be extra points if a skater does 5 or 6 different triples in the free. Also for the guys (except that a guy who is doing a 4S wouldn't have to do the 3S to get the extra), as they're doing quads now some might not want to do f.e. a triple flip.

Click to expand...

I agree. We would never say a female skater without a 3A is an incomplete skater. Kim doesn't do a 3L and she would still be my definition of a complete skater. And of course many flutzers (Mao/Kwan) are some of the best skaters of all time.

I don't think there should be a bonus for doing all 5 triples - already there is an inherent bonus under IJS because you get to do a triple instead of a double axel, which is at least 1-3 points more depending on the triple. Also, judges count triples too and that factors into their P/E scores given the more triples you add to your program the harder it is to execute as a whole.

I think some skaters do benefit from a 3A bonus, like Liza at Worlds (and Midori has in the past, getting 5.9's for tech. merit even with popped jumps thanks to including the 3A).

I will say that I don't think Mao has benefit too hugely on the PCS mark with her 3A, given she was getting junior PCS scores even when executing the 3A. But the whole PCS game has changed now where judges are more willing to dish out higher PCS scores.

Pika-Alva said:

Cheated ? But finally landed ! Congrats Courtney Hicks
https://instagram.com/p/6nmJsrqEKU/

Click to expand...

Way cheated. Massive hook turn on the ice. I mean, I hate to be a party pooper, but a tech panel would have to be totally drunk and blind to give that.

I'm curiously waiting for Japan open to see where Mao's triple axel is in preparation...it will be an interesting competition with Liza and Adelina, and Gracie and Ashley and Satoko. I wonder if Adelina or Gracie will try it there....

The worst thing would be Gracie trying a 3axel and falling she would probably just collapse because when Gracie makes a mistake you just know more are on the way. A failed triple axel would just take the air out of her whole program and performance and be a total disaster for her. Hopefully Frank is smarter than that since Gracie very rarely ever skates clean.

Jammers said:

The worst thing would be Gracie trying a 3axel and falling she would probably just collapse because when Gracie makes a mistake you just know more are on the way. A failed triple axel would just take the air out of her whole program and performance and be a total disaster for her. Hopefully Frank is smarter than that since Gracie very rarely ever skates clean.

Click to expand...

I agree to be honest. Gracie did really well at glacier falls, so it would NOT be the best idea to slow down her momentum with a failed triple axel that throws off the rest of the program. Frank seems to be getting her more consistent which is a better use of their time in my opinion

samson said:

Here's a video from The Skating Lesson of Mirai in practice today:
https://instagram.com/p/6S6zzJKEF6/

It's so hard to be sure but boy that looks really close. For what it's worth The Skating Lesson tends to be very real about their feelings on Mirai's jumps so if they're saying she's close I'm inclined to believe it.

Click to expand...

You can see Mirai backing off of the jump. Just before the take off she hesitates. You have to be fully committed to the jump or it isn't going to happen. Great run at it, though.

TonyaHardlyEver said:

You can see Mirai backing off of the jump. Just before the take off she hesitates. You have to be fully committed to the jump or it isn't going to happen. Great run at it, though.

Click to expand...

And is there really any way to get passed that hesitation other than keep trying?

Her other recent attempts look a little more aggressive. The axel is a very much an attack jump. It very mental.

Well Alaine Chartrand has officially added herself to the mix

https://twitter.com/SkateCanada/status/639126489175314432

So that is one 3A attempt for sure at Nebelhorn, plus Courtney and Mirai will be there as well and have attempted it over the summer. This could be a crazy event.

Alaine went for the 3a at Minto, and fell on it. The Canadian tech panel gave it <<.

StitchMonkey said:

Well Alaine Chartrand has officially added herself to the mix

https://twitter.com/SkateCanada/status/639126489175314432

So that is one 3A attempt for sure at Nebelhorn, plus Courtney and Mirai will be there as well and have attempted it over the summer. This could be a crazy event.

Click to expand...

The problem is you will have skaters at Nebelhorn who might be trying the 3A who have a hard time rotating their other jumps so maybe that needs to be the focus for them.

I expect there to be a lot of "I'm working on a 3A" declarations this year...but I'm seriously doubtful we'll see more than a few people outside of Mao and Liza T actually do the jump in competition.

Courtney, bless her heart, still looks to be nearly three-quarters short on rotation...has there been any video of Gracie attempting a 3A without the harness?...if Alaine is getting hit with a downgrade, she's not close enough yet...Joshi Helgesson looked short on hers too.

The only person who I could see possibly getting one ratified at this point is, oddly enough, Mirai. Or at least I think she'd be capable of getting a 3A< which is still better than most of the attempts we've seen so far.

kwanatic said:

I expect there to be a lot of "I'm working on a 3A" declarations this year...but I'm seriously doubtful we'll see more than a few people outside of Mao and Liza T actually do the jump in competition.

Courtney, bless her heart, still looks to be nearly three-quarters short on rotation...has there been any video of Gracie attempting a 3A without the harness?...if Alaine is getting hit with a downgrade, she's not close enough yet...Joshi Helgesson looked short on hers too.

The only person who I could see possibly getting one ratified at this point is, oddly enough, Mirai. Or at least I think she'd be capable of getting a 3A< which is still better than most of the attempts we've seen so far.

Click to expand...

I completely agree

Even if Mirai gets 3a<, at Collegiates, she was still URing 3f+3t, 2a+3t and 3z in her FS. What good does it do to add still another underrotated triple to her repertoire? Unlike Mao Asada, she doesn't bring great musicality and interpretive skills to her skating, so she doesn't have the high PCS scores to offset the deductions for all the URs. I'm afraid Mirai will just be devastated if she lands the 3a and then finds that her scores don't take a dramatic upturn.

I don't see Gracie trying a 3a anytime soon. She really doesn't need it---she just needs to nail all her jumps cleanly to reach her goals.

chuckm said:

Even if Mirai gets 3a<, at Collegiates, she was still URing 3f+3t, 2a+3t and 3z in her FS. What good does it do to add still another underrotated triple to her repertoire? Unlike Mao Asada, she doesn't bring great musicality and interpretive skills to her skating, so she doesn't have the high PCS scores to offset the deductions for all the URs. I'm afraid Mirai will just be devastated if she lands the 3a and then finds that her scores don't take a dramatic upturn.

I don't see Gracie trying a 3a anytime soon. She really doesn't need it---she just needs to nail all her jumps cleanly to reach her goals.

Click to expand...

I agree, but an UR 3A will give her more points than any other UR triple, at least. But well, with all those UR issues Mirai has, I don't think her scores will change dramatically either.
I also think that Gracie won't go for the 3A, I haven't seen a video of her trying it w/o the harness. And the 3A can have a very strong impact on a skater if she doesn't have a very strong mind, which is sometimes one of Gracie's problems. If she lands it she may become too excited and lose focus for the rest of the jumps, and of she doesn't it's not a great confidence builder to start your program. The first thing was what happened to Liza in one of the many minor competitions she attended, she was so happy about her 3A that she didn't focus on the rest of the jumps. Gracie needs to go clean and she can beat most of the field except for Liza and Mao.

I highly doubt many ladies will be landing credited 3A's this season. However, 2 years from now, that may be a different story.

I'm sad for Mirai. Don't see her skating improving to where it should, just the typical Tom Zakrajsek focus on jumps without great enough technique. 3F+3T is such a such a waste of time for her to be practicing. 3A, okay, just because it's worth SO much more than a 2A and will put any female skater into a whole new category if they can do it. Really no point in trying to do any combo harder than 3Toe+3Toe anymore, unless you have truly pristine technique and consistency on a harder combo (AND on two difficult triples for the SP, since the only benefit of doing a harder combo is being able to include a second difficult triple in your program). Mirai clearly does not have that and trying to focus on it is not going to put her ahead of the pack. She should be trying to get her speed back and continue to improve her skating skills and presentation and spins (some of her positions have not been cute for several years now).

Having no back-end 3Toe at all in the LP is still the best path for Mirai, IMO, and going for 3Toe+3Toe and 3Loop in the second half of her SP would be the best way to get points there. With clever choreography, she could have the first half of the SP will only the Axel + one spin for technical elements and then put the jump combo exactly at that halfway mark in order to have her legs as fresh as possible. Start the program with lots of "transitional movements" to show off your skating, then comes the Axel, more transitions, spin combo, more transitions!!!, jump combo, flying spin, 3Loop, footwork sequence, layback. Really effective. The key is you don't need as much space for transitions in the second half of the program because the footwork sequence already shows off plenty of that and the entry into the solo jump is going to be out of a transition anyway. Quick entries into the spins right after another element compacts time, allowing those CoP points to be maximized.