Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

There might as well be a thread for this, as it is one of the main reason I am still watching this sport (as well excited by the US men.)

Oh boy it is going to be exciting!

This was discussed by TSL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjcgyFN0QbI

To me it is impossible to choose. While I am sentimental and invested in Hanyu since watching him grow up rising from the Juniors, but it is undeniable how much of an impact Patrick Chan has affect the sport and influence the youngsters including Hanyu for the better. Just watch last season's choreographic programs, and even upcoming skaters like Nathan Chen, you can see Patrick Chan's influence in all of them.

It'd be a bit like comparing Rembrandt to someone like Picasso.
Patrick = Classico refineness, regality, aesthetics, virtuosity, impact/influence, master vs
Hanyu = Passionate, extreme, stubborn, emotion/spirited, pushing the envelop, unpredictable.

It will be inconceivable to imagine neither of them place at the WC 2016 podium at this point, but ice slippery, and what position will they be?

Jumps
For me I love Patrick's big quad toe combo, but Hanyu is a quads master with a very COP smart team, and you can count on him maximise the 2nd half bonus. Plus the quality of his 3As and 4S


Spins
Yuzu, he is just ridiculously flexible and fast, age have something to do with it? In a few years, will he lose them?


Skating Skill
Patrick is undoubtly the King, probably the best ever. Hanyu however is catching up really fast, and his improvements on the basics is amazing to watch. His team at the cricket club did a marvelous job with him.


Steps/Transitions
Gotta give it to Patrick. He makes everything looks so effortless as natural as breathing, although Hanyu is so exciting to watch, but he nearly always have stamina issues which makes you feel for him and marveled at the same time.
Fundamentally, should emotional reaction overwhelms virtuosity?
Is this a show or is this a sport?


Posture
Patrick. His carriage, lines, centered core, positions way ahead of Hanyu by simple matter of age difference, development and experience. It is not a matter of just style, but there's a few years of hard effort work visible to see in everything he does. In a few years time with hard work, it is not to say Hanyu might not eventually surpass him.


Interpretation
Hard to say... must watch before decide.
Personally I am not a fan of Hanyu's Seimei yet, although I really love the concept to do a Japanese themed program. Something about the music and generic choreographyhowever doesn't quite do it for me based on the show version of it. Add a few monster quads, and heart beating moments with more clear and refined expression/interpretation, maybe??!


Performance/Execution
With these two, it is so unpredictable, it depends on the day. Who will fall more?! Really hard to say... please stay away from the boards (and other skaters - include each other. I still winced at that gnash Hanyu's blade made on Patrick's abdominal region, very painful and dangerous!)


Choreography
I will have to give it to Patrick. His work in the last few years has some of the best choreography and delivery I have seen. His influence is massive and all over the mens, including Hanyu's Chopin last year imo.


Mental toughness
Hanyu. This Romeo warrior's heart is strong... no one knock him down, and even when he is down, he bounce up again and again.


Conclusion
Arghh.. I can't decide!!! Soo ridiculously close!!

I'd love to see Pooh waving a Canadian flag sitting ontop of Hanyu shoulder, while Patrick does a big brother bear hug around Hanyu at the WC ceremony. Medal colours almost don't matter, as long as they are able to do their bests. (Of course secretly, I'd love Patrick do a Yuna Kim Les Mis triumph return just to keep things interesting. That OGM loss is sore!)

Hah, I essentially agree with everything you said in your post!

I love both skaters, and I think their competitive dynamic elevates the sport moreso than if one of them weren't competing.

PCS-wise, Hanyu has caught up, although certainly not surpassing or even matching Chan's level of skating. But closing that PCS gap and his incredible difficulty (which will only be increased next year) makes him very tough for Chan to beat. Skate Canada could be a dogfight, although Chan tends to skate well there, and Hanyu tends to peak later in the season. Come the GPF (which I expect both to make) it could be anyone's game.

Hanyu's old strategy to compete against Chan was to try and out-base-value him. And I think that strategy has become twice as potent, now that he has more quads... more stamina... and his PCS scores can rival Chan's.

In particular, he can do triple axels in his sleep, even from a standstill... where Chan sometimes seems to struggle with them. And Hanyu's second-half triple-axel combinations are killers - they're worth more than quad toes or salchows. Add his divine 4T... and a 4S... and it's like having a four-quads free skate...!

So I think Chan (although not to be underestimated) is now the underdog, and Hanyu is the favourite. Just my opinion though, obviously.

I'm not a fan of Chan - his skating was always impressive but ultimately it left me cold. And the times he put his foot in his mouth didn't help. But regardless, I welcome his return to competition, and I'm looking forward to seeing him and Hanyu compete.

Someone of his skill and stature can only be good for the sport, and it pushes other skaters to do better, not just Hanyu. And the last season he competed, his skating actually left me... less cold :-D He was improving on that count...!

Hanyu this year will be the fave hands down. Chan is coming back and Hanyu has improved pcs; I think Chan deserves the edge there and Hanyu is given a little too generous marks but Hanyu is far better technically with an additional and consistent triple axel and quad salchow - Chan has to be perfect which is rare and the judges are giving Hanyu amazing pcs. But don't forget there is the world champ Fernandez, Denis Ten and the judges favourite Jason Brown (who in my opinion is not in the league of Chan or Hanyu pcs wise or technically) and undoubtedly another Japanese man too boot.

it is exciting! I can't wait!

These two skaters will definitely make next season very exciting, they're very different in their style, their strengths and weaknesses. I think Yuzuru will have the TES advantage even if he falls on one of his quads, because he has two others and the 3A combinations to make up for it. And as the PCS gap is not that big anymore and there is a limit to it, I think Patrick needs to have at least his second 3A if he doesn't want Yuzuru to win over him by TES like it happened at the GPF 2013 and Sochi.
I think Patrick will have a slight edge after the SP, but Yuzuru could more than make up for it in the FS. I'll give Patrick SC because he does well at the GP events, when Yuzuru doesn't. Still, I expect both of them to make it to the GPF, and that's when Yuzuru peaks, so it will be more exciting there. I don't think we'll see either of them at 4CC, Worlds is going to be very intense.
And well, should any of them falter, Javier and Denis can pose a serious threat, but they would need some great performances.

Javier is the world champ, not Yuzuru...do people think that was just a fluke or something?

Chan would need 2x 3A and other type of quad , because just on paper Hanyu TES with that layout this season will be insane if he skates it cleanly ( not sure it's gonna happen xD )

gallavich said:

Javier is the world champ, not Yuzuru...do people think that was just a fluke or something?

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Javier won with FS score something like 180 ? While Chan and Hanyu are way in front. They are clearly two the best skaters

HanDomi said:

Javier won with FS score something like 180 ? While Chan and Hanyu are way in front. They are clearly two the best skaters

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Not "clearly" in my mind at all. Especially since both of them have been grossly overcored many a time and PChan hasn't skated in over a year. Who says Javi isn't going to get better scores this year - again, he is the world champion, so I would expect an increase in PCS, and maybe he will up his TES as well.

Hanyu is great for sure, but he isn't infallible. No comment on PChan.

gallavich said:

Javier is the world champ, not Yuzuru...do people think that was just a fluke or something?

Click to expand...

The thing with Javi (the way I see it), is that, even though he is better than Patrick on the technicals. I'm not sure how his PCS would do against Patrick's. Guess it's a matter of waiting and see how his title helps his second mark But I'd say he also needs the 2nd 3A (I think he was doing only one in the FS?)

My love for Patrick and his gorgeous posture and lines is not easily matched by most skaters. With Plushy returning, I can't imagine how I'll contain myself when they skate. Patrick's Ice Wine will definitely help. There are so many good skaters these days which is a really nice change from the days when you could basically pick the top 5 with very little effort. IMO, if Patrick holds it together, there isn't a skater around that can match his artistry and technical content. It's going to be a great season.

mrrice said:

there isn't a skater around that can match his artistry and technical content. It's going to be a great season.

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Hanyu technical base in olympic season was 8 points higher than Chan already from start, and if Chan doesn't change anything it will be 13 this season, then I don't know what you mean here

HanDomi said:

Hanyu technical base in olympic season was 8 points higher than Chan already from start, and if Chan doesn't change anything it will be 13 this season, then I don't know what you mean here

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I guess what I'm trying to say is that with his combination of technical content added to his performance quality, especially his posture and his upper body carriage, Patrick is a dancers skater. I hope that made sense. Also, I know he wants to win but, it's not that important to me as long as he skates well.

One thing excite me is the fact I believe champions really shows themselves when under pressure and have something to proof, like a previous bad outing or whatevers. It is how they come back from failures that makes them champions.

Prior to 2014, I don't think we have ever seen Patrick under real major pressure or having a serious challenger apart Hanyu at the Olympics, which well.. it is going be a tough tough thing he will need to overcome. A big chip on his shoulder he need to flicker away. Skate Canada should give him home advantage, but never underestimate Hanyu's legions of fans and of course the raining poohs! Skating order should be interesting, as well as the atmosphere in the rink. I'd expect Canadian crowd are supportive either way though.

Same thing with Hanyu, you'd bet as supportive as he is to his skating 'bro's gold, deep inside he can't be that satisfied with his silver last WC. Both of them have major motivation to make this season count, so you can't ask for a better competition when both have huge motivation to slay.

Javier imo was a good winner but was a little lucky to take advantage of Patrick's absent, Hanyu's crazy season last year (never mind his injuries, there were much discontent with this GPF medal), Denis's inconsistency. I thought his PCS particuarly skating skills for the FS was rather overmarked, but then I have felt for the past few seasons ISU seems wanting to bring gold back to Europe by some of their panel selection particularly for the ladies that is made out of 100% European judges 2 years in a row. It is also a sweet compensation prize for coming so close to the Olympic podium. The wind was beneath his wings and he flew with it! How will the gold motivate him this year? This gorgeous Spaniard who is known to enjoy his siestas

I'll give the edge to Yuzu given Patrick has been out of competition for the year, at least for the early part of the season. I kind of agree with Dave Lease that Patrick may need a little time to get his competitive skates under him and fix his 3A but he could be in top shape in time for Worlds.

I'm more of a Yuzu fan given his humility vs. Patrick's tendency to put his foot in the mouth. But I like both of their skating styles.

Javi being WC does raise some questions - as he will have higher PCS due to his status.

Will there still be inflation, Hanyuflation or Fernflation? LOL

Well, add Tenflatation to it and at least none of the top dogs has to feel left out.

IMO, it's in Hanyus hands. Even with all of PChans great qualities, there's only so much you can do against 3 quads + 2 3As, all with amazing quality, 3 out of 5 of them in the second half of the program. If Hanyu nails all of those jumps, he'll be unbeatable. Even with a fall or pop in there he'd still be.
That doesn't mean I don't think Chan is a great skater and one of the favorites of the current guys. But Hanyu is potentially in his own league and is going to decide his medal color on his own (with the very real chance of messing his ridiculously difficult program up and giving the gold away, but well.... still in his own hands, you know? ). I think PChan might actually have to worry about Fernandez and DTen besting him too, Fernandez being the world champ and DTen kinda has a 4S in his arsenal too... it's going to be a great season either way

What should be their jumps BV for next season programs?
I know Yuzuru should be

sp: 31,16
fp: 79,89

Patrick? Denis? Javi?

The thing about Yuzu Tes score is that aside from the BV itself, he usually has also great GOE on at least all his Axel/Axel combo and all his quad (provided he lands them).

How is Joshua's health? He's so promising and relatively young Especially compared to Patrick. I really hope the US Boys will show up and compete with the top skaters. BTW, has Ross Miner landed a quad at Nationals or Worlds? How is he looking this year? He always seems to be under the radar.

Exciting times! Chan's return is a major deciding factor in my decision to go to Boston. His skating is so beautiful to watch and my respect for Hanyu deepened this year too so can't wait for the rematch! Would love to see a newer name rise to the challenge too against these two, Javi and Denis - Nam Nguyen, I'm looking at you! It's lovely to not have any skaters I actively dislike at the moment!