Asada v. Tuktamysheva: 2015-16

karne said:

Wow. Five pages of setting up so that when Liza beats Mao this season of course the only reason will be because Liza is an EVIL RUSSIAN. And if Mao gets URs it's because of EVIL RUSSIANS.

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Ummmmm. Did you read the thread OR did you read that one post in Liza's fanfest that summed up this thread very similarly to your post?

Most things said about Liza in this thread: she is clearly the best jumper among the two/best jumper of all the current women; ss, in, ch, etc., lack compared to Mao; her competitive mentality is much better than Mao; ........that's pretty much the summary of the whole discussion. Obv, these are all personal opinions, but this is the consensus of those that have replied & the general feel of the thread.

Now tell me where are these 'evil Russian Liza!!!' posts?

A lot of times while we pick up two competitors to compare, and found both of them may end up losing to someone else. Cannot wait to see how Julia, Elena, Evgenia and Anna do tomorrow (right). I think at least two of the four can challenge both Mao and Liza.

hippomoomin said:

A lot of times while we pick up two competitors to compare, and found both of them may end up losing to someone else. Cannot wait to see how Julia, Elena, Evgenia and Anna do tomorrow (right). I think at least two of the four can challenge both Mao and Liza.

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Let's not forget about Adelina too. Sure, her plans do not sound concrete for the upcoming season but she is another variable that will come in play here.

Going back to the topic, I think Liza has an edge simply due to the mental-toughness she has exhibited last season and for her mad jumping skills. I think she looks quite motivated with what she's trying to do technically....then again Mishin is her coach.

I like Asada more than Liza as a skater but,
as a competitor I think Liza will win eventually
because she has stronger and more accurate jumping technique
and more importantly, better consistency
which is I think critical for scoring TES and even PCS nowadays

TheGrandSophy said:

Huh? I may have skim read this so perhaps I missed some other hysterical post, but all I read was people saying what they thought of the skaters. What is wrong with that? I thought discussing a comparison of their chances and their abilities was the point of the thread? Of course maybe other threads have been biased? I don't know about that, but certainly in this one some accusation of charges of cartoonish hate against 'Russianness' is a straw man argument, IMO.

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Here you go:

gotoschool said:

I wish Mao a successful comeback and that all skaters skate to their potential and that they are scored fairly without obvious signs of favoritism, such as bogus / suspect / overlooked ur calls and GOE and PCS inflation / deflation that are not based on the stated criteria or what is visible on instant replay. if these irregularities occur, the official results for me will be irrelevant, especially if they become a decisive factor.

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FlattFan said:

it's insane to have people think that liza has good SS and fast. She skates like 2/3 of the rink, and not fast. Her jumps also weren't so big, compare to say, Carolina or Kim's. The height of the jumps were ok, but the distance covered weren't nearly as impressive.

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Leonardo said:

So Lisa will probably be getting huge pcs because she's a great jumper and the world champion, regardless of her artistry (or lack of). And since she's the better jumper and is the more consistent than Mao, she will probably win every important competition.

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Leonardo said:

Agreed. And even if they both "hit", I think the pcs differences will be small enough to give Liza the gold, the judges don't really care about posture, lines, artistry and all, it's all about big jumps, consistency and reputation.

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os168 said:

Liza's greatest advantage is likely sharing the same nationality as chairman of technical committee Alexander Lakernik who is in charge of all technical panels + rules changes. Yeah the 3t values hike out of no where... better for the sport?!! Yeah right.... better for who? Worse for who? Let's see how strict the technical callers are with NHK vs Cup of Russia vs Skate America. The ! vs e, for who.

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Li'Kitsu said:

I will have to admit I'm afraid not. I'm afraid Mao won't get the reward she should in some areas whereas Liza's strengths are the kind the judges love to reward, and it will end up in results I disagree with (most of that assumption is based on last years scores, a little on Maos history too).

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jenaj said:

Mao also has not always gotten the PCS she probably deserves. Against a Russian, it will be even harder. She will have to prove herself. Liza is not Mao's only competition, by the way. Elena R. could well come out on top if Mao or Liza make mistakes. Julia L. is coming back and Evgenia(?) Medvedeva is another potential medalist.

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os168 said:

Something to bear in mind, I have always stated Liza's PCS last season since the beginning was rather inflated coming off Sochi... come on Carolina Kostner only received 65.72 for her World Champion 2012, Akiko 59.02 in PCS for Silver ... can one honestly look at Liza's WC FS program/performance with PCS 65.99 and say that artistically she was better and complete than either of them?!

<snip>

PCS is a funny business, it will be interesting to see how the judges mark the GP series this year, who are the tech callers. Will there be Russian judges at Cup of China, NHK? If so, there should be a Japanese judge at TEB and Skate Canada. More importantly how strict are the technical callers. European championships will be very amusing to watch. Let's see whether European judges may hand out their first 70s PCS since Kostner.

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There you go.

^ Only three of the posts you quoted are about EVIL RUSSIANS. In a thread of 85 replies, that's hardly anything at all. The others you quoted are just opinions/observations in disfavor of Liza's skating or in favor of Mao's... and what's wrong with that? They're opinions. :scratch:

AprilS said:

^ Only three of the posts you quoted are about EVIL RUSSIANS. In a thread of 85 replies, that's hardly anything at all. The others you quoted are just opinions/observations in disfavor of Liza's skating or in favor of Mao's... and what's wrong with that? They're opinions. :scratch:

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ITA. This thread is very informative so far and is mostly based on observation. There's only one sort of "evil Russian" comment so far and it's like only 2% of the entire thread. Even the comment about Russian PCS being high post Sochi is actually true and that's based on facts and actual results. I really don't see why pointing out the areas of improvement in Liza's skating is worth being mad about. Both skaters are great and both have areas to improve on and that's what this thread is saying.

But moving on, I'm just honestly excited about Mao's comeback. FS results are well..FS results, based on scoring that no one truly understands. XD I just wish them both and the others a great season.

Apparently any critique of Liza means you hate her & you must be accrediting her fabulous last season to the fact that she's Russian.

And the worst is that they may fight out of the podium in the end
Adelina, Yulia, Elena, Anna, Evgenia, Satoko, Gracie, Ashley and many others all hungry to grab some medals

Im a big fan of Mao but I also enjoyed warching Liza last season. Cant wait to see these two ladies (and Yulia) to compete this season. I am so excited for both of them.

amazingMao said:

Im a big fan of Mao but I also enjoyed warching Liza last season. Cant wait to see these two ladies (and Yulia) to compete this season. I am so excited for both of them.

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+1
Also, having both Mao and Liza competing will put some pressure on the ladies to up the tech content, so maybe we will see more 3A or even quads over the next few years.

As a Mao fan, considering her age, it will be a tough season for her, despite her brilliant skating qualities, to against all current top young competitors as she will be 25 this month, the eldest in the current field (off course she knows that well).

But I still hope that people wouldn’t underestimate her mentality and determination after a year off. I believe she has now competitive fire in her mind more than ever.
We will see her strong come back like she did at the Sochi LP!

Anyways, I am so excited to be able to see great performances from them when actual competitions start soon!! :yay:

Karne, three posts (from 2 posters) are seemingly what you have asserted the whole thread is. Now, yes, I didn't see those posts clearly in my skim read, but all the others do not assert anything other than that judges value jumps more. And all the rest of the thread (and there are 92 posts) similarly do not do any more than prefer one skater and have an opinion that that skater is better. Many posts compliment Liza's strengths. You obviously prefer Liza's skating, I presume, as she is your Queen. If you express that and say why you think she'll win, that wouldn't be 'Evil Japanese,' so why the reverse?

If this is the 6.0 age, I think Mao would have won comfortably.. but as we are in the COP Godzilla mode post apocalyptic world, it is hard to say these days.
The power rests with the gate keepers!

As for everything else... do not engage.
New rule to self. ignore self appointed derailers, exorcists, firewoman from OZ.

os168 said:

If this is the 6.0 age, I think Mao would have won comfortably.. but as we are in the COP Godzilla mode post apocalyptic world, it is hard to say these days.
The power rests with the gate keepers!

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I disagree, Elizaveta's chances wouldn't be bad in the 6.0 age. What was needed? Technical difficulties, a clean skate, no reasons for deductions and a engaging performance, she can give you just that.
I like variety, if there were only lyrical skaters like Mao around I would be bored, no matter how much I love her. And Elizaveta is a very good skater.

psusanne said:

I disagree, Elizaveta's chances wouldn't be bad in the 6.0 age. What was needed? Technical difficulties, a clean skate, no reasons for deductions and a engaging performance, she can give you just that.
I like variety, if there were only lyrical skaters like Mao around I would be bored, no matter how much I love her. And Elizaveta is a very good skater.

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It depends how advance you think Liza is better than Mao technically
vs
how advance you think Mao is better than Liza artistically.

Mao has the 3A, and produced more of them over longer periods of time than Liza. She is a multiple WCs, GPF gold medalist, Olympic Silver Medalist just overall veteran/legend
and seems many people's sentimental favourite, likely include 'some' international judges. She may have UR and edge issues but these hasn't held her back too much with a favourable judging panel. In any case i think it comes down to who has the more complete package/program, the one who can deliver the best music interpretation/choreography with the 3A should win. Even though these things are sooo undervalued under the current COP climate.

For the record, I have been an early supporter/defender of Liza since juniors (just check my old posts history including on FSU, and her early FB friend), but try to keep things real, pragmatic and fair (even I may not always word it). Part of the fun watching this sport is to call over marking, questionable judging and rule changes when we see them. Like i mentioned earlier Liza has the makings of becoming a legend in a few years time (She is the this generation's real Russian diva and the reigning Youth Olympics Champion), AND if she manage to beat one of the legends such as Mao to do it, she could rise sooner. Hey! I like variety too, and think the competition is going to be closer and unpredictable than people think. We saw what happened with Julia after OGM highs. Who knows.. may be Julia will revenge, Gracie, Ashley, Anna, Elena can all still surprise. I have my favs and was hoping for a break out year for Li ZiJun but she goes against Mao on both competitions make her chances slimmer If Mirai manage to get a 3A (even an <) out at some point in the season, it will be hallelujah hail mary already - same goes for Courtney.

I fully agree that Mao is better artistically than Elizaveta. But in 6.0 the score for artistic was more like a performance score imho, just remember the scores Surya got sometimes. Mao is more introverted, Elizaveta is more outgoing, that should help under 6.0. The 6.0 scoring system sometimes wasn't comprehensible at all and sometimes it was.

psusanne said:

I fully agree that Mao is better artistically than Elizaveta. But in 6.0 the score for artistic was more like a performance score imho, just remember the scores Surya got sometimes. Mao is more introverted, Elizaveta is more outgoing, that should help under 6.0. The 6.0 scoring system sometimes wasn't comprehensible at all and sometimes it was.

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Hmm.. good points! So it comes down to judge panel at the end of the day... and politics.

THIS was brought to my attention this morning. If it's any indication of her condition, then Asada is fine.

At the end of the day, it'll be down to the skates at each event. I don't mind Tuk winning, so long as everything is judged fairly. It's obvious she's technically armed but you can't tell me her artistry has improved until I see what changes come about this season. Her choreography, body of work, style has been the same since her debut and I don't see that changing in one summer just because she's a defending WC. As for Mao, I'm just happy she's competing again. Medal or no medal, her skating in the antidote to the mediocrity that is the current field. Wagner makes things easier to swallow, and so does Miyahara, but Mao always elevates the sport whenever she competes. THAT is something that will take Tuk and the rest of the noobs a little longer than a season to achieve.

TheCzar said:

THIS was brought to my attention this morning. If it's any indication of her condition, then Asada is fine.

At the end of the day, it'll be down to the skates at each event. I don't mind Tuk winning, so long as everything is judged fairly. It's obvious she's technically armed but you can't tell me her artistry has improved until I see what changes come about this season. Her choreography, body of work, style has been the same since her debut and I don't see that changing in one summer just because she's a defending WC. As for Mao, I'm just happy she's competing again. Medal or no medal, her skating in the antidote to the mediocrity that is the current field. Wagner makes things easier to swallow, and so does Miyahara, but Mao always elevates the sport whenever she competes. THAT is something that will take Tuk and the rest of the noobs a little longer than a season to achieve.

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Nice 3Axel! I do wonder how she manages to keep going like this for so many years, seemingly in good condition and no injuries. Wow!