2015-2016 Ladies Power Rankings | Page 14 | Golden Skate

2015-2016 Ladies Power Rankings

Tutto

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Here's the thing...At this point in her Career, like Ashley, Gracie is a star in the US. If She were to change coaches, she'd need to head out of the US. Every decent coach in the states already has a "Diva" of their own. Where would you send Gracie if she were to leave Frank?

Sometimes I think Gracie and Ashley should swap coaches
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Sometimes I think Gracie and Ashley should swap coaches

Me Too........Actually, if Mirai weren't already with Tom Z. That's where I'd send Gracie. I don't know if he still has his skaters doing this but, I seem to remember seeing Agnes Zawadski running up a Mountain in Colorado. I can't imagine seeing Gracie do that but, maybe she needs a less cushy environment. She isn't training in Lake Arrowhead anymore is she? Maybe she needs to live in one of those tiny cabins that Michelle and Karen had to live when they were up there.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Gracie's training is not the issue and never has been. The girl probably outworks all the other top US Ladies when it comes to being trained and ready at least physically. The problem is all in her head and a new coach won't fix that. It's all up to her.
 
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RABID

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Gracie's training is not the issue and never has been. The girl probably outworks all the other top US Ladies when it comes to being trained and ready at least physically. The problem is all in her head and a new coach won't fix that. It's all up to her.

Well, that is an opinion not shared by many insiders from all sports. Sometimes the "best" is not the best fit for an athlete or a team. Maybe she needs a mother figure rather than father one (Tracy Wilson?). Maybe she needs a coach who emphasizes performance over technique or conditioning over practice or fun over discipline. There are many roads to Mecca, as the saying goes and for some the straighter the better but for others a little scenery is needed. Who knows? But after Worlds if she is still where she has always been she has to have this discussion with Frank, family and friends.
 

andyjo24

Medalist
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Gracie's training is not the issue and never has been. The girl probably outworks all the other top US Ladies when it comes to being trained and ready at least physically. The problem is all in her head and a new coach won't fix that. It's all up to her.

Gracie NEEDS to visit Carolina Kostner (even if that means traveling all the way to Italy) and ask her what specifically she did to become a much more consistent skater. She hasn't been gifted the competitive mindset like Yu-na Kim and Satoko Miyahara, but this can be learned as we all saw from Carolina Kostner not finishing off the podium after 2010-2011.

But oh right... Kostner is coming back next season... Woops. :drama:
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Gracie NEEDS to visit Carolina Kostner (even if that means traveling all the way to Italy) and ask her what specifically she did to become a much more consistent skater. She hasn't been gifted the competitive mindset like Yu-na Kim and Satoko Miyahara, but this can be learned as we all saw from Carolina Kostner not finishing off the podium after 2010-2011.

But oh right... Kostner is coming back next season... Woops. :drama:

you are kiddin right? Since when is Kostner a consistent skater? In pcs maybe, everything else :scratch2:
 

andyjo24

Medalist
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
you are kiddin right? Since when is Kostner a consistent skater? In pcs maybe, everything else :scratch2:

She has never finished off the podium since the 2009-2010 season. That's pretty consistent. Or is that not? :scratch2:

But either way, what she did after the 2009-2010 season is miles better than before that. Remember? :palmf::bang::slink:
 
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OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
She has never finished off the podium since the 2009-2010 season. That's pretty consistent. Or is that not? :scratch2:

But either way, what she did after the 2009-2010 season is miles better than before that. Remember? :palmf::bang::slink:

I wish nothing but the best for Gracie, but the last thing I'd hate her to get is undeserved PCS that can save her podium finishes. Kostner became consistent during the season without Kim, Asada, or Ando outjumping her. Strategically she did the smart thing, down graded her tech - upgrade her artistry, calmed down her speed with smart cop programs at smart cop competitions (b events building up her pcs, euro championships).

Given speed, tech are actually the things that made Gracie unique and exciting when she is on... why do we have to keep pushing our atheletes to become something they are not, I don't know... I'd hate her to have Kostner like reputation for PCS even when she don't deserve them.
 
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Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
I wish nothing but the best for Gracie, but the last thing I'd hate her to get is undeserved PCS that can save her podium finishes.

Which she is already getting. I find her PCS to be already more baffling than Carolina's.
 

Lexiglass

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
What's the point? Gracie is getting higher interpretation scores than even her SS scores, so there's no incentive to improve......

And I bet if she were as consistent as Evgenia, judges would put their PCS on around the same level.

The problem, unfortunately, is not limited to Gracie. IMO almost every top lady is getting PCS scores that don't reflect their weaknesses and don't give them incentive to improve. Are Ashely Wagner and Elena Radionova's SS scores reflecting what we see on the ice? When they're clean, their PCS scores are so high you'd think they were the total package. Are Elena's choreography scores appropriate for whatever that titanic program is? Mao hardly has a PCS advantage over the other top ladies even though IMO her skating is at another level (obviously, the tech hasn't been there though). In part, this a problem with judging. IMO, it's also a problem of PCS not actually rewarding or punishing the things that skating fans are drawn to. The guidelines are specific , and don't always line up with my gut feeling of what distinguishes a good program from a great one. I think it's also a problem that we don't have any consistent stars in the ladies field. Everything ends up coming down to tech.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
The problem, unfortunately, is not limited to Gracie. IMO almost every top lady is getting PCS scores that don't reflect their weaknesses and don't give them incentive to improve. Are Ashely Wagner and Elena Radionova's SS scores reflecting what we see on the ice? When they're clean, their PCS scores are so high you'd think they were the total package. Are Elena's choreography scores appropriate for whatever that titanic program is? Mao hardly has a PCS advantage over the other top ladies even though IMO her skating is at another level (obviously, the tech hasn't been there though). In part, this a problem with judging. IMO, it's also a problem of PCS not actually rewarding or punishing the things that skating fans are drawn to. The guidelines are specific , and don't always line up with my gut feeling of what distinguishes a good program from a great one. I think it's also a problem that we don't have any consistent stars in the ladies field. Everything ends up coming down to tech.

For me, PCs are not really even supposed to do that.
Also, what the fans are drawn to? Radionova has tons of fans, people love her, so if we use this definition, her PCs actually reward the things skatings fans are drawn to, because she got tons of fans, and gets high PCs, it seems to correlate =D
 

Lexiglass

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
For me, PCs are not really even supposed to do that.
Also, what the fans are drawn to? Radionova has tons of fans, people love her, so if we use this definition, her PCs actually reward the things skatings fans are drawn to, because she got tons of fans, and gets high PCs, it seems to correlate =D

Fair point - I meant more like "what people think is good skating". PCS doesn't correlate with the artistic mark from the 6.0 era, which I think is what leads to so many people being baffled by PCS marks. But again - that's not the whole story either, because part of the issue is definitely that judges aren't using PCS scores to distinguish among top skaters who have different strengths and weaknesses.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
The problem, unfortunately, is not limited to Gracie. IMO almost every top lady is getting PCS scores that don't reflect their weaknesses and don't give them incentive to improve. Are Ashely Wagner and Elena Radionova's SS scores reflecting what we see on the ice? When they're clean, their PCS scores are so high you'd think they were the total package. Are Elena's choreography scores appropriate for whatever that titanic program is? Mao hardly has a PCS advantage over the other top ladies even though IMO her skating is at another level (obviously, the tech hasn't been there though). In part, this a problem with judging. IMO, it's also a problem of PCS not actually rewarding or punishing the things that skating fans are drawn to. The guidelines are specific , and don't always line up with my gut feeling of what distinguishes a good program from a great one. I think it's also a problem that we don't have any consistent stars in the ladies field. Everything ends up coming down to tech.

I think the issue is that Gracie's PCS in the FS at 4CCs was the 2nd highest of all the ladies and she really didn't perform that program. Compare that to Pogorilaya at Europeans who had some issues but only finished a distant 3rd in PCS as she deserved to. At Europeans, Anna's PCS in the FS were closer to Kuchvalska in 4th than Radionova in 2nd. Gracie meanwhile had 4 people beat her at 4CCs, yet she got significantly higher PCS than 3 of them.
 

andyjo24

Medalist
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I think the issue is that Gracie's PCS in the FS at 4CCs was the 2nd highest of all the ladies and she really didn't perform that program. Compare that to Pogorilaya at Europeans who had some issues but only finished a distant 3rd in PCS as she deserved to. At Europeans, Anna's PCS in the FS were closer to Kuchvalska in 4th than Radionova in 2nd. Gracie meanwhile had 4 people beat her at 4CCs, yet she got significantly higher PCS than 3 of them.

And also, her interpretation score of 8.04 was even higher than her SS score of 7.96, which is just ridiculous. What interpretation was there in her 4CC FS? Nothing.... She was blank faced throughout all of the program and just going through the motions. No emotion, no passion, nothing... Where did the firebird go? :scratch2::palmf:

I would personally give her lower interpretation marks than Rika, Kaetlyn, and So Youn who were not perfect (Gracie was far from perfect too...) but at least interpreted their programs to some extent.
 
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Lexiglass

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
I think the issue is that Gracie's PCS in the FS at 4CCs was the 2nd highest of all the ladies and she really didn't perform that program. Compare that to Pogorilaya at Europeans who had some issues but only finished a distant 3rd in PCS as she deserved to. At Europeans, Anna's PCS in the FS were closer to Kuchvalska in 4th than Radionova in 2nd. Gracie meanwhile had 4 people beat her at 4CCs, yet she got significantly higher PCS than 3 of them.

Ultimately...so what? Having the 2nd highest PCS didn't help her get anywhere near the podium. At most, Gracie's inflated PCS moved one or two other skaters a spot below where they would have otherwise ended up. I'm having a hard time getting worked up over that. A more glaring issue, as andyjo points out, is that Gracie's PCS scores simply didn't reflect what she did. Her interpretation scores should not have been higher than her skating skills score. I'm willing to cut Gracie more slack than most others on here, but that performance lacked conviction. She is a better skater than most of the field, and her programs are better constructed, have more intricate in-betweens, and are designed to help her interpret the music - but she didn't sell them at 4CC. Maybe that means she should have been 3rd or 4th in PCS - but who cares, the point is that the judges aren't giving her the signal to improve in the areas that need improvement, and furthermore, she is not the only one! The judges aren't using PCS scores to give skaters feedback on their weaknesses, but rather seem to be just giving a general "program" score, and that's a shame.
 

koatcue

Medalist
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Country
Russia
So far:
1) Medvedeva
2) Miyahara
3) Wagner
4) Pogorilaya
5) Gold
6) Radionova
7) Asada
8) Hongo
9) Daleman
10) Tursynbaeva
 

karlowens2

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
I don't know what else to say on the subject of Gracie's Firebird program other than this. As a former professional dancer I can promise that there are lot of things in Gracie's Choreography that come straight from the ballet. Including the "Squat" which I still can't believe is what some people call it. Can you seriously imagine Lori saying..."Ok Gracie.....Squat!!" Just the thought of it makes me laugh. :laugh2: Why don't some of you have a look at the pieces from the ballet and you'll get a better picture of what Gracie, Frank, and Lori are going for.

Have a look at this clip from the actual Ballet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC6MmmLKEmA

Some of you may find the choreography a bit odd. However, Ballet isn't for everyone and trust me when I say. I'd rather perform Firebird a thousand times before I ever do another "Modern Dance" ........I remember a dance where we started as a Tree, then some of the dancers "fell off" as leaves and died. They had to lay there for 3 minutes while some of us ( Me ) turned into birds and flew away and the final group fell to the ground and become the "Roots" before 1 dancer came out dressed in a green leafy costume and began the new life of the tree.

You never saw an audience more confused. :scratch2: We got "Courtesy Claps" every night for that dance. It was embarrassing.

Gracie reported she loved the music and the program. I don't know where this idea that the music was wrong for her came from. I thought the choro very appropriate; and, the most demanding program of the season. The intricacy, rapid changes in style and expressive range required is what got her all the PCS. That said, Gracie is still coming out of her shell and the angularity of it was muted iMO. Would like more punch. Maybe bring it back for Oly's; add anoher big combination?

I get myself in trouble here but Med's program aside from a few anguished expressions is just pretty and flowey throughout. Satako's? - even a worse bouquet of violets.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Gracie reported she loved the music and the program. I thought the choro very appropriate; and, the most demanding program of the season. The intricacy, rapid changes in style and expressive range required is what got her all the PCS.

I get myself in trouble here but Med's program aside from a few anguished expressions is just pretty and flowey throughout. Satako's? - even a worse bouquet of violets.

I cannot agree. The first 35 seconds or 15% of the total free program time she is just setting up and making 3Lz-3T - the same routine she does in all her programs all last years. One just cannot compare it with other top skaters for one thing with Medvedeva who show much more variety in the choreo.
 

annesigin

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Can my list include skaters in Jr group? If yes, then:

1)Evgenia Medvedeva
Her always high goe indicates good quality of her jumps. Her fs is delicate and intellectual, especially the outstanding choreography. She has the most beautiful lines of her body, especially her arms. She is one of rare skaters who can hear the music, within both men and ladies. Most importantly, she can always be clean.
I hope she can remain her jump qualities when she grows up in the following two seaaons and correct her lz skills. She need to improve her skating skills to match her high ss scores. I expect to see she can have two programs both as gorgeous as this season's free skate W.E. It is important for her to try different types of music but still hold her unique style.

2)Ashley Wagner
She is sexy. (Can I propose to her? Just a joke.) She is the only sexy lady among current single skaters. Isn't it enough? Btw her ss is good, just like most North America skaters.
Her under-rotation and unclear landings limit her TES.

3) Polina Tsurskaya
Strong jumps. It is shocked to see her huge toe loops. Good consistency.
I hope she will not grow to too high...

4) Gracie Gold
Always the 4th?
Great ss. Her bv is high enough. If she can clean, she will win. But she never cleans.
She need to correct her flip, or do not use flip in her sp.
She has a wooden performance. Look at Medvedeva's arms and body. Gracie should learn.
I always like her costume, especially the sp's. This indicates she can distinguish what is beautiful and what is ugly at least.

5) Anna Pogorilaya
Better ss than other Rusian skaters. She has a good consistency. And she is high so her motion would look more obvious than others'. She is potential to find her unique style.
But sometimes she has too faults. Especially after she has the first fault, she would have ond fault after another...

6) Higuchi Wakaba
Strong jumps. She can combo all tripples (except 3A) with both -3t and -3lo. So she can get a most high planned bv without 3A.
Her two programs are both boring with too little transitions. She need better choreography especially at the moment she will go to the senior groups.
I hope she will not be more heavy in the future.
She did good in Japan National for two years. But this season she failed at jgp so she could not participate jgpf. She failed again in the WJC which I think she might get the gold medal in. She need to know which competitions are more important and adjust her peak at that time.
She said she is practicing 3A and quads after the season finishes. I hope she can be cautious.

7) Honda Marin
Her PCS is really huge. She do have two suitable programs with good choreography and two beautiful costumes. Her mental strenth is strong so she can usually hold the most important opportunities.

8) Hongo Rika
Good consistency. Bad gestures. Her fs stuck with me.
Under-rotation and edge-problems limit her bv and tes.
Btw, Akiko is my favourite skater and I hope Rika can get good grades with her help.

9) Asada Mao
I admire her spirits and 3A. Her ss is the best. But she can never get to her planned bv because of under-rotation and wrong edge. She only has under-rotated -3lo and -2t without -3t, which makes her must jump 3A if she want to win. The too difficult jumps make her fell frequently, make her landings so so (so the goe is low) and make her consistency bad because of too long preparation time for jumps (or she may deserve higher PCS).

10) Miyahara Satoko
Little robert Satoko San, too stable~ Good spins. Consistency. Lack of enthusiasm so sometimes her programs make me bored. Tiny jumps and under-rotation (I think her jumps don't deserve so high goe).
And I hate PRE-ROTATION.

11) Elizaveta Tuktamysheva
Hope you to come back with your 3A, Liza~
Excellent jump technics. Poor ice coverage. Terrible costumes.

12) Elena Radionova
Please change a choreographer. Please change your costumes. Please correct your strange neck gesture. Please bigger the ice coverage. Please do not pump your arms unnecessarily.
But she is so tenacious! I hope she can pass this period of difficult time quickly!

13) Maria Sotskova
Best gestures. Elegant manners. Correct edges and seldom undee-rotation.
But her worst ss in the world makes her programs most boring.
 
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ioanna

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
^^^ That list (or more like its description) just erased the word "power" from the title of the thread. By the way, who is little Robert? I think I'm not up to date with the Satoko nicknames some people like to come up with around here.
 
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