The demise of the Qualifying Round | Page 2 | Golden Skate

The demise of the Qualifying Round

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
I see no reason to lengthen the time of the SP.

can they:
1. do a jump combo
2. do steps into a jump
3. do an axel jump
4. do a flying spin
5. do a combo spin
6. do a change foot spin ( I actually think that mens and ladies SP should be the same! what's so great about a layback?)
7. do a footwork sequence
8. do a spiral footwork sequence (to me this is different from doing just another fws, men should do it too)
?

What else is there? All the LP does is repeat elements. Don't get me wrong, I think the LP is needed to stress the presentation side more, but I don't think that there is any element that is missing from the SP the needs to be done to judge if a skater qualifies or not. It's also nice to see who can do all of the jumps in the LP, but I don't think that's necessary for the SP.

One last rant, OT of course, but I think that the ladies LP should be the same time length as the mens.
 

icenut84

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Joesitz said:
Set the minimum points a skater has to achieve to qualify for the LP. The minimum points will vary with each competition, and to allow for no more than 18 skaters to go on to the LP.

I think it would be realistic to say that any of the 18 skaters could achieve a 3rd place finish in the LP. The LP would be the final score for the contest. No prior scores will be considered. Since all the finalists will be equal before the LP, each skater has a chance for the podium and no one has an advantage.

If the minumum points varies to allow no more than 18 to go through - wouldn't that just make sense to say "top 18 go through"? Or am I missing something?

I also don't agree that the SP scores should be wiped, and that the LP should be the only skate that counts. What happens if skater A has a miserable SP (only just qualifies), but a terrific LP to place 1st, but skater B has a great SP and a very very good LP to place 2nd? Skater B was clearly the best competitor, but by your logic would not have won the gold. With 2 or 3 programmes in each competition, one great skate is not enough - the skaters have to show that they are consistent and can be more than just a one-hit wonder re: good performances. The "advantage" the higher skaters would have is simply because they skated better in the SP, so the advantage is due to their own skating. If their advantage was due to not having to skate the QR when half the competitors do, then I don't think that would be fair.

Also - why do you say the SP should be lengthened by 1 minute? :confused:
 

SusanBeth

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I was thinking the longer time might be interesting. If no more jumps are allowed, you could actually force some of them into creativity whether they liked it or not. I guess watching program after program filled with back crossovers has made me cruel and desperate! :D
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I'm not really in favor of lengthening the SP. Wouldn't it just begin to resemble a mini-LP (except a bit more empty)? I like the fact that skaters have certain things to accomplish in a short amount of time...it seems to force/push many skaters/choreographers to be all the more creative so that they might stand apart. There are actually some skaters that I enjoy primarily for their SPs: Slutskaya, Sokolova, etc. Some of my favorite creative, artistic performances have been SPs: Michelle (EOE, Romanza, TFB), Sasha (Malaguena), Alexei (Winter), etc.
 

thisthingcalledlove

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Joesitz said:
Here's a suggestion:

1. Eliminate the QR.

2. Increase the SP to 3.5 minutes

3. Set a minimum total score from the SP by using COP

4. Skaters falling below the minimim score are eliminated.

5. All scores are dropped before the LP.

6. Skaters who remain in contention skate the LP and this score will name the podium.

Joe

.

I like your suggestion =)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Thanks TTCL - Having watched a couple of Worlds now, and see how someone like van der Perren wind up in a third group and then skate beautifully in the LP made me feel it was not fair to put him out of contention because of the scores of the QR and SP.. I also noticed that the judges tend to keep the 5 groups together. Difficult to move out of the Group once you are in one after the SP. Johnny and Michael moved out because of a withrawal and a bad skate of another competitor. Otherwise there is hardly any movement from group to group.

There is no hope for Groups 4 and 5 to medal since the scores of the QR and SP will still be considered. I doubt too, that anyone in Group 3 could medal but maybe the skaters in groups one or two would have a meltdown.

So, I selected 18 as the magic number to skate the LP. And if the QR and SP scores are dropped there is a chance for all of them to medal. It's a matter of a "chance to medal versus no chance to medal" And groups 3,4, and 5 have literally 'no chance". So why make them skate and get judges all bleary eyed? Our main interest would be only in the top 6 and without a melt down it really is the top 3 skaters. My proposal gave 18 skaters a chance to medal. And what an exciting competition that would be!

The increase in the length of the SP that I proposed was to give the 28 skaters who would be eliminated a chance to show their stuff It's a long trip to the Worlds not only in mileage.. However, I am not against changing the SP as it is.

Certainly, using the top 18 without reference to the total points from the SP as the guideline could be onsidered. However, the total points does say something about the skater. There could be less than 18 qualifying for the LP if the total points were considered.

I get the feeling that most of the replies are negative which is fine with me. I believe the topic "getting rid of the QR" does not have many suggestions from the members. Members seem to be stead fast in the staus quo, and why not?

Joe
 

alicelouise

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
No QR?

The sport of gymnastics did this a few years ago with the "new life" rules. It seems that the results are more accurate.

One thing is for sure no one would have an unbeatable lead a la Beatrix Schuba in 1972.

Anyhow, I hope skating takes a leaf from the gymnastics playbook.;)
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Joesitz:

There should be some sort of an elimination round. If you don't like the LP then make a suggestion/

Here's one way out in "left field" - bring back the figures!!
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
To qualify, I think there should be a compulsory program where every skater does the same program to the same music, one that emphasizes skating skills. I wouldn't mind if they had to do a program similar to dance compulsories, only for singles, solo, with rockers and brackets, turning in all directions, extensive use of ice coverage, twizzles, moves in the field, etc. Maybe with some spins added. Pairs could do more dancey like moves, with intricate holds. Training for this type of program could only improve the skills for the SP and LP.

From what I saw of the Worlds this year, the competition among the Men in this type of program would be stronger than among the Ladies, who are usually considered more "artistic." The edging skills among the younger men were very solid.
 

PrincessLeppard

~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~
Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Hockeyfan, I like your idea. My *dad* actually suggested something like this a couple of years ago. I think a compulsory program for singles would be great. (I don't know if you'd need it for pairs; there really aren't that many pair teams at Worlds.)

Joe, I don't like the idea of just 18 going through to the final round, and I must agree with whoever said that in order to be World Champion, you need to be more than a one hit wonder. I like that the competitors have to go through three rounds and be consistent through all three, or at least two. But having said that, I really do like watching skaters 18-24, and even 25-30. I think they all offer something interesting, even if they are falling oall over the place, or can't do anything more difficult that a 3 toe loop.

But you could use the QR to set skate order, but ditch the scores (especially with CoP and two sets of judges) and just let the SP and LP count, like it used to.

Laura :)
 

floskate

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
berthes ghost said:
Not sure when it started, 93 is the earliest I know of (Maria didn't make it out of QR and Russia could only send 1 lady to Lillehammer), but form 93 to 99 the top 10 from the previous year's worlds didn't need to do the QR. Everybody else, including newbees, did.

93 worlds: Oksana skates QR and wins worlds, Surya, Nancy and Lulu don't and don't. Maria and Tonia K are eliminated in QR.

94 worlds: MK and Bobeck do QR as first timers. MK passes, Bobeck fails.

95 worlds: Because she was intop 10 in 94, MK is excused from QR. Bobeck does QR and passes this time.

96 worlds: Former world champ and Oly medalsit Midori does QR because she wasn't at 95 worlds and hence not in top 10. So much for a "big name" being held up. Tonia K has to do QR as well.

I'm confused because Michelle Kwan DID skate the qualifying round in '97 as reigning world champion. So if what you say is true why did she skate? I have clips also so I know it's true!!
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
PrincessLeppard said:
Joe, I don't like the idea of just 18 going through to the final round, and I must agree with whoever said that in order to be World Champion, you need to be more than a one hit wonder. I like that the competitors have to go through three rounds and be consistent through all three, or at least two. But having said that, I really do like watching skaters 18-24, and even 25-30. I think they all offer something interesting, even if they are falling oall over the place, or can't do anything more difficult that a 3 toe loop.
But you could use the QR to set skate order, but ditch the scores(especially with CoP and two sets of judges) and just let the SP and LP count, like it used to. Laura :)

HI Laura - I think the gist of the thread was the demise of the QR (get rid of it) which is what my plan was all about. Apparently, many posters like the QR and do not want to change it. I'm not atrong on killing the QR but I do think there are too many contestants who are not of World Champion calibre. If you have been to Worlds, you know that the last two groups of six in the LP haven't a prayer of getting a medal, and those in the 3rd group would have to have everyone ahead of them have a meltdown. Not likely.
You may also notice that the judges are very stingy with their scores for those 3 groups of six. I think it's because they already know who they must concentrate on in groups 1 and 2, all of whom have some chance of medalling. My plan included those two groups plus one of the impossibles. That was why I limited the LP to 18.

There is also a case for the ennui of the judges in the whole competition except for the very elite skaters.

However, I agree with you on letting all the skaters except the few who are now eliminated under present rules, skate the LP. I also like to watch. If you don't go to Worlds, you aren't going to see much more than the elite skaters on TV, and you might wonder why you're watching Joannie rochett and not Fumie Surguri. If you did go to Worlds you would understand why.

I, too, would like to see Hockeyfan's proposal, if the QR is not to demise. I find that teenage skaters have not mastered the basics whereas more senior in age skaters flow quite well. However, Hockey fan did not say if anyone should be eliminated because of poor basics. In years before you were born, the purpose of school figures were to eliminate skaters from the free skate because they were not demonstrating those 3turns, brackets, counters, rockers, etc. in a skillful way.

But BG is happy that they are doing away with the QR in Euros and 4CC. I am not aware they ever had the QR for those competitions.

Joe
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
To qualify, I think there should be a compulsory program where every skater does the same program to the same music, one that emphasizes skating skills.


I have mixed feelings about it. I never understood why there is a compulsory component in dance. So who decides the music. Skaters from all over the world have diverse background, some may bring in music that are unique to their culture. I absolutely love Yukina's sp 03 - 4 season. I think if some ISU people decide the music we will be getting the more traditional top 100 classical pieces. I oh so look forward to some skaters trying Bright Shen's Lacerations or Shen's Nanking, Nanking a Trenody j/k. How about Janacek's Kreutzer sonata?
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I did mean that the qualifying compulsory round should be used to narrow the field. I was looking at the top 20 women from Euros, and I think some who qualified at Worlds using the LP as quali round would because they can throw four triple attempts into their program would not have made it to the SP, if skating skills were judged properly. I wouldn't have a problem with the scores being dropped from that round though.

Euros have qualis if there are enough skaters. They dropped the Men's qualis at Malmo because there were only 31 Men, but held them this year, when there were 33. The opposite happened for Ladies' qualis in the past two years.

The only reason I would want to drop the qualis in their current form from Worlds next year is that I know I'm going to miss the tours of Moscow to watch the skating.
 

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
floskate: I'm not sure when that rule began or ended. (If you say MK did 97QR, then I guess it ended in 96) I just listed the years where it was an issue and talked about (93: Maria and Tonia K, 94: Nicole, 95: Nicole, 96: Midori) So we know that was the rule from 93 to 96 (top 10 from previous year exempt), what went on before or after is the mystery. 2000 was the first time I remember it counting toward the score, but that's just cause the talked about it (Re: MK). Maybe 97 thru 99 was mandatory but didn't count toward score?
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
If the existing QR is for the reason mentioned above the thread that it is too difficult for judges to sit through more than 30 skaters. Then I see no reason to keep QR under new CoP system.

The old system supposedly compare skaters to each other, thus it is difficult for judges to compare the first skate to, let's say 20th or 30th skate late. But under new CoP system judges are supposedly judgeing skaters against an abstract standard skate, there is no comparing with the skaters skated before or late. If judges applied the judge rules consistantly the SP scores can be used for eliminating the skaters, if judge panel still too tired to judge after 32 skaters. Just get top 32 or 24 SP skaters advanced to LP, this way all skaters come to worlds get to show what they can do. And judges would not be tired out by end of the LP then throw in those random scores.
 

PrincessLeppard

~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~
Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Joesitz said:
HI Laura - I think the gist of the thread was the demise of the QR (get rid of it) which is what my plan was all about. Apparently, many posters like the QR and do not want to change it. I'm not atrong on killing the QR but I do think there are too many contestants who are not of World Champion calibre. If you have been to Worlds, you know that the last two groups of six in the LP haven't a prayer of getting a medal, and those in the 3rd group would have to have everyone ahead of them have a meltdown. Not likely.


However, I agree with you on letting all the skaters except the few who are now eliminated under present rules, skate the LP. I also like to watch. If you don't go to Worlds, you aren't going to see much more than the elite skaters on TV, and you might wonder why you're watching Joannie rochett and not Fumie Surguri. If you did go to Worlds you would understand why.

I was at Worlds in DC, and I used to live in Europe, land of Eurosport, who used to show all phases of the competition and all skaters. This is how I know, even though skater #30 might not be able do much more than a 2A, I want to watch them anyway. Because I'll never be able to do a 2A.

And I'm actually okay with getting rid of the QR, but then you get all kinds of crappy start orders for the SP (probably not as much of a problem with CoP), and the kid from Mexico only gets to skate his SP. So I guess...I waver on the QR....

I, too, would like to see Hockeyfan's proposal, if the QR is not to demise. I find that teenage skaters have not mastered the basics whereas more senior in age skaters flow quite well. However, Hockey fan did not say if anyone should be eliminated because of poor basics. In years before you were born, the purpose of school figures were to eliminate skaters from the free skate because they were not demonstrating those 3turns, brackets, counters, rockers, etc. in a skillful way.

But BG is happy that they are doing away with the QR in Euros and 4CC. I am not aware they ever had the QR for those competitions.

Joe

:laugh: How old do you think I am? I remember school figures.

And to the poster who asked what the music would be for a compulsory singles program....well, would it need music? And if so, what would be wrong with "Classical Music's 100 Greatest"? Maybe everyone could get Carmen out of their system if it was the music for the compulsory program. :p (and the program would be what? 1:20 long? Shorter? Slightly longer? Things to ponder.)

Laura :)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Hey Princess - Nice to know I am not alone in age on this forum.:laugh:

That's an idea: have all the skaters skate to Carmen or Malaguena or Don Quxiote or Warsaw Concerto. It gives all the skaters a chance
to show their thing. Great for comparisons purpose Can you imagine 31 to 45(?) skaters all doing their thing to Don Quixote? Just might take 2 days to finish that.

Personally, if the judges don't mind doing a ho hum job with 18 skaters, why not let all the skaters do their thing and not worry about their scores. The judges will come to life when skater No. 12 after the SP takes to the ice for the LP. And then the top 6 who will be the usual suspects and the TV will be about them.

If the ISU is trying to eliminaate the QR then that is another matter.

Joe
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That's an idea: have all the skaters skate to Carmen or Malaguena or Don Quxiote or Warsaw Concerto. It gives all the skaters a chance
to show their thing.
Only if these pieces are barred from being used in any other phase :)

There are different judges in both quali rounds and in the compulsory dances now, and the judges for the LP are chosen from the superset of the first round. I assume that the reason the same number of skaters qualify from each round, and that the rankings are not co-mingled from the rounds, is to be sure that different standards don't cross-pollinate.
 
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