The demise of the Qualifying Round

gkelly · Jun 17, 2004

PrincessLeppard said:
I was at Worlds in DC, and I used to live in Europe, land of Eurosport, who used to show all phases of the competition and all skaters. This is how I know, even though skater #30 might not be able do much more than a 2A, I want to watch them anyway. Because I'll never be able to do a 2A.

Skater #30 can do more than a 2A. All the skaters who placed top 15 in their qualifying groups and made the cut to the short program in DC (and in Minneapolis 5 years earlier, and probably all the Worlds in between) were capable of landing at least a couple of triples.

IIRC, every single skater in the qual rounds in DC managed to stand up on at least one triple *or* a double axel, although in some cases it was only one such difficult jump and may have been slightly cheated or two-footed. (The badly cheated or two-footed ones I wouldn't count.) That includes the skaters who finished 20th or lower in the qual groups and didn't get anywhere near qualifying for the short program and the top 30. The ones who came close to qualifying included some quite accomplished and interesting skaters who just happened to have a bad day that day.

Joe wrote:

I'm not atrong on killing the QR but I do think there are too many contestants who are not of World Champion calibre. If you have been to Worlds, you know that the last two groups of six in the LP haven't a prayer of getting a medal, and those in the 3rd group would have to have everyone ahead of them have a meltdown. Not likely.

I would disagree.

I assume by "the last two groups of six" you mean the skaters ranked 13-24 after the short program, who skate in the first two groups of the evening chronologically, and by "those in the 3rd group" you mean the skaters ranked 7-12 after the short.

Are you saying that these skaters are "not of World Champion calibre"? Or that even if they do skate better than the final group, skate order and factored placements (or large numerical leads under code of points) will prevent them from medaling anyway?

Of course one major purpose of holding a World Championship is to determine the world champion, and only a handful of skaters show up at the event each year prepared to compete for that title. Sometimes no one really does and the title goes to the least worst by default; sometimes you get a great event in which the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, or even seventh best skater skates well enough to win in a leaner year.

But a World Championship is also a meeting of top skaters from around the whole world, a chance for them all to show their stuff to the world and to measure themselves against each other. There are well over 24 skaters per discipline in the world who are of a calibre to merit that opportunity -- unfortunately some of them come from countries with deep fields and don't make their countries' world teams, others do go to Worlds but have a bad day in qualifying or in the short program and don't make it to the final. That doesn't mean they're bad skaters. Many of them are good skaters. Many of those who get to the final round but not to the top-6 final warmup group are very good skaters indeed. Just because they aren't at this moment great skaters, or didn't skate their best that day, doesn't mean that they may not be able to challenge the best in the world next year or next week, or even with exactly the same performances in front of a different judging panel.

As a ticket-buying fan, I lament that some interesting skaters don't make it past quals or the short program cut, and I would not like to see even more skaters cut, especially if the price of the tickets were not reduced comparably.

The competition organizers would prefer to keep the prices up -- they could take in more money that way and the costs of holding an additional warmup group on long program day are negligible compared to the costs of setting aside a whole day for qualifying rounds.

The skaters themselves and their federations of course want the opportunity to qualify for the final because it brings prestige, exposure, experience, and a ranking (which will help provide additional opportunities in the future).

Judges are limited by the number of hours they can stay alert to judge a large group of skaters. Code of Points might help the problem to some degree in that there's no real need to compare each skater to all the previous ones, but physical and mental fatigue will still be issues. If the consensus so far is that 30 short programs or 24 longs is the limit (keeping in mind that the short programs are, naturally, shorter), who are you to say that they shouldn't have to handle more than 18?

If you yourself don't enjoy the lower groups, you have the option of arriving late.

Personally, I enjoy watching good skaters even if they're not having a good day or don't have the highest level skills to ever be "great" skaters or win world medals. But you know something? Sometimes they do surprise you with a great skate from the lower groups. And sometimes they do go on to start winning medals at the top levels sooner than you might expect.

As for getting rid of qualifying rounds -- the only things that bother me about them are that the points carry over to the final, that the groups can be unbalanced, and that some events need them and some don't. There aren't easy solutions to all the problems they raise, but there isn't an alternate easy solution to the problems they try to solve: 40 or 50 skaters is just too many for one judging panel to judge. But 18 is not too many.

If you're so eager to make it easier on the judges in the final round, how are you going to deal with the problem of judging fatigue in the short program if you don't cut it down? Use different separate panels, or maybe rotate judges in and out so they get some longer breaks? That *might* work with Code of Points, if and when the different judges' uses of the numbers get more standardized. But not yet. And definitely not with an ordinal system.

Plus the whole reason the long program was chosen for the initial cuts historically is to give skaters an opportunity to show what they're best at. Sometimes their best skills don't fit into the short program requirements. Sometimes their biggest weakness (e.g., axels or laybacks) is something that the short puts a disproportionate amount of weight on. And even one error can be a lot more costly in the short. Again, these reasons might change somewhat under Code of Points, where the long program has more restrictions and the "deductions" are taken the same way for both, but they won't be eliminated entirely.

Balancing large numbers of entrants, MOST of whom ARE of a calibre to skate in a world championship IMO, against the limits of practicality in comparing them to each other is not easy. Any solution will have problems, possibly worse than what exists now.

Kateri · Jun 17, 2004

Hear hear!! - to the comments by gkelly on lower-ranked skaters.
I love watching all the skaters.
I don't see how it matters at all that they can't make the podium - do you really think they care?? Most of them will be thrilled to be there at all, and there is nothing better than seeing someone perform to the height of their ability, and be completely elated by it. I don't care if that's by landing hordes of difficult jumps or just by skating a clean programme - or not even that! Everyone has different goals. I really do enjoy the lower groups just as much as the higher ones.

k.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 17, 2004

Hey gkelly - I reiterate I am not a strong QR killer. And you did point oout some rationality other than than what I perceive as boredom of the judges to watch 40 skaters, and my belief that it takes its toll at the top 12 skaters. Perhaps you are right, I dunno. Maybe the judges are bright eyed and bushy tailed at skater No. 9 as they may be at skater no. 37. OK, I give you that.

But your reasons seem to be a combination of altruism and personal pleasure. Thinking about how much a skater works hard all year to go to the Worlds and could be eliminated by some sort of minor competition is heartbreasking. I know I was once eliminated for school figures. It was not unusual then to go home without ever showing your 'stuf''. However, it did make you work all the harder after that.

And since I bought an expensive ticket to see the Worlds, I, too, want to see as much skating as possible. I am also selfish in that area. Who cares if the judges get bored. Let everyone skate the LP.

One other thing, as a meeting of the best in the World, I daresay that there are in the USA and Japan, several skaters who could medal or be in the top 12 but have already been eliminated by their own Nationals. Why not let anyone skate who wants to in the worlds? I'd love to see Ye Bin Mok in the Worlds if she can not get through Nationals. Are you ok with that?

As to the skating order, if the judges are not comparing under the CoP what difference does it matter when the 'elite' skate?

Joe

gkelly · Jun 18, 2004

Joesitz said:
I reiterate I am not a strong QR killer. And you did point oout some rationality other than than what I perceive as boredom of the judges to watch 40 skaters, and my belief that it takes its toll at the top 12 skaters. Perhaps you are right, I dunno. Maybe the judges are bright eyed and bushy tailed at skater No. 9 as they may be at skater no. 37. OK, I give you that.

The issue is not so much boredom as fatigue. By calling it "ennui" and stating that skaters in the lower groups of the final round are not of world calibre, you insult a lot of world-calibre skaters.

Including, incidentally, the 2004 US national bronze medalists.

One of my points was to establish that I do consider skaters at that level to be world class.

The other was to question the logic behind your proposal to have everyone skate a longer short program (in one group, or in two or more groups with separate panels the way the qual rounds are divided now? that wasn't clear from your proposal).

The way things are set up now, judges never have to watch more than 30 short programs or 24 long programs in the same day. (Well, unless they get drawn onto both a pairs and a singles panel; never more than that in the same competition, though, and there would be enough time in between for a relaxed break.)

The only people who "have" to watch 40+ men or 40+ ladies on the same day are fans or press people or whoever who watch all of both qual rounds.

Certainly some experienced judges who have been doing this for years must get jaded and bored with the whole process at times. But Worlds is the big deal of the year, so it should be less routine, less blah, than all the other competitions those judges do throughout the year. And the standard is actually higher, with more world calibre skaters than they see at their own nationals, or at other ISU championships or fall internationals, etc. And anyone who wants to judge in the first place probably finds the process of evaluating skating interesting, they're not there just to be entertained.

It's not the fact that the skaters are boring that causes a problem with evaluating the final group. If anything, it's just the demands of staying alert and engaged for 3 or 4 hours at a time. The only reason I could see cutting the final round to 18 instead of 24 would be to lessen those demands if they proved to be too burdensome and judges were making mistakes because of fatigue. Do you have any reason to suggest that most judges feel that four groups is too much and three would be better?

On the other hand, did you want the first round to include 40 or 50 skaters all skating in one big 6-hour group for the same set of judges? That adds a lot more fatigue than exists in the current system. Or use separate panels for separate groups? How is it more fair to do that in the "short" program than for the current qual rounds?

The only advantage I could see would be that the skaters would only have to skate twice instead of three times. But that would really only benefit the skaters who are going to make it through to the final, which would be fewer skaters if you make the first and only cut to 18.

But your reasons seem to be a combination of altruism and personal pleasure.

I listed several reasons, those among them. But it's not so much altruism even as recognition that countries whose best skaters would always be "on the bubble" to make it past the first round if the cut is to 18 would have no reason to approve a plan that would make such a cut.

Thinking about how much a skater works hard all year to go to the Worlds and could be eliminated by some sort of minor competition is heartbreasking. I know I was once eliminated for school figures. It was not unusual then to go home without ever showing your 'stuf''. However, it did make you work all the harder after that.

And that's why the USFSA instituted freeskating qualifying rounds at regionals and raised the number of skaters to advance to the final round -- because they recognized that sending most of the skaters home before they got a chance to show their stuff wasn't in anyone's best interest.

One other thing, as a meeting of the best in the World, I daresay that there are in the USA and Japan, several skaters who could medal or be in the top 12 but have already been eliminated by their own Nationals. Why not let anyone skate who wants to in the worlds? I'd love to see Ye Bin Mok in the Worlds if she can not get through Nationals. Are you ok with that?

I would love to see a way for skaters to get the opportunity to compete, whatever country they're from. The only way I can see to do that fairly would be to allow each country to send more skaters, and to hold more qual rounds. Which, of course, would become more expensive for the host organization.

As to the skating order, if the judges are not comparing under the CoP what difference does it matter when the 'elite' skate?

In theory it doesn't, and I never raised that issue anyway. Fatigue could still be an issue; if we're talking about the initial round with a random draw, judging mistakes due to fatigue might affect some medal contenders and might affect which of the borderline skaters make the cut to the final.

How many skaters are entered in the first place and how many make it to the final round will affect how high the standard is for the borderline area. I think it's already pretty high, and adding more skaters to the intial round(s) and/or reducing the number who advance to the final will only increase the numbers of good skaters who don't get through.

berthes ghost · Jun 18, 2004

For years people were saying that the whole reason for having the QR count toward the final score was so that 1) the SP was ranked in a more TV friendly manner and that 2) seeded skaters took it more seriously.

Well, if TV is showing less and less interest in skating, why cater to them? And if the only reason to have a QR is to save judges fatique in the SP (a concept I'm stiil not buying) than who cares if the seeded skaters are taking it seriously or not?

gkelly · Jun 18, 2004

berthes ghost said:
For years people were saying that the whole reason for having the QR count toward the final score was so that 1) the SP was ranked in a more TV friendly manner and that 2) seeded skaters took it more seriously.

My understanding is that the main reason for having the qualifying round count was to make it an official part of the competition, to give the skaters who don't make the final a ranking and official recognition that they competed at Worlds and not just in some preliminary that doesn't count.

Well, if TV is showing less and less interest in skating, why cater to them? And if the only reason to have a QR is to save judges fatique in the SP (a concept I'm stiil not buying) than who cares if the seeded skaters are taking it seriously or not?

Using the qual round results to seed the SP helps TV because they don't have to tape or show the earlier groups and would better be able to show the final group or groups live (not that ABC/ESPN ever did, but Eurosport often does, and other countries' national stations might when the time zones work out favorably).

That function is not inextricably tied to having the qual rounds count, even though it was voted in at the same time (started in 1999). Even if the qual placements or scores don't count toward the overall placement, the results could still be used to seed the short.

The issue of fatigue has to do with the size of the field. In 1992 there were 40 ladies and 35 men at Worlds, and the cut was made after the (randomly seeded) short program. That was with a "unified team" from the recently fragmented Soviet Union.

Beginning in 1993 there were all of a sudden a bunch of separate former Soviet countries each sending skaters to Worlds, and there has also been growth in the number of new skating countries from Asia and elsewhere joining the ISU and sending skaters. Judging 35-40 skaters in random order had already proved to be a strain on the judges, and the problem was only going to get worse as the fields continued to grow. That's why qualifying rounds were instituted in the first place, beginning in 1993.

In recent years there have been as many as 47 or 48 men or ladies entered at some Worlds and Junior Worlds. That's already pushing the limits of 24-skater qual rounds. If the ISU continues to grow, soon it will be necessary to break the field into three groups instead of two.

If you want to get rid of the qual rounds completely, you either have to limit the numbers of countries who are allowed to send skaters to Worlds at all, which the smaller countries who make up the majority of the voting members would never approve, or else you need to break the short program or whatever you replace it with into two or more groups to be judged by separate panels, which would only compound the unfairness problem if the groups turn out to be of unequal strength.

If and when Code of Points scores become standardized enough that you can legitimately compare them across different competitions with different judging panels, it may be possible to use the actual scores rather than the rankings within the groups as the cutoff criterion, but not while the new system is still a work in progress.

berthes ghost · Jun 18, 2004

Thanks so much for the information gkelly!

Grgranny · Jun 18, 2004

We went to the 92 Worlds. So exciting.
I don't remember how many there were, but there were way too many for one afternoon. It got out really late. Everyone was asking if they all were to skate in the final. They started the long programs an hour earlier than planned but had cut it down considerably. Some of them were so bad they could hardly stand up on the ice. That part is no fun to watch.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 18, 2004

gkelly said:
My understanding is that the main reason for having the qualifying round count was to make it an official part of the competition, to give the skaters who don't make the final a ranking and official recognition that they competed at Worlds and not just in some preliminary that doesn't count.

So by all means, let's keep the Qual Round but why let some of those skaters do it again in the LP? If there were a way for them to medal, I would say OK, let them skate. But there isn't. No skater has moved from 30th place to 3rd place. But for those and I am including myself who want to be spectators, we want to see more and more skating even the few who were just elimated. So the competition is more of an exhibition than a Sport? Am I correct?
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Using the qual round results to seed the SP helps TV because they don't have to tape or show the earlier groups and would better be able to show the final group or groups live (not that ABC/ESPN ever did, but Eurosport often does, and other countries' national stations might when the time zones work out favorably).

Are you saying that if I went to Prague I could check in the hotel and watch complete skating events (with a bottle of Pilsner, of course). Do you have any solution to this dilemna with ESPN?
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The issue of fatigue has to do with the size of the field. In 1992 there were 40 ladies and 35 men at Worlds, and the cut was made after the (randomly seeded) short program. That was with a "unified team" from the recently fragmented Soviet Union.

Fatigue has been studied with scoreing papers by teachers (judges) and found that the more papers to score the more errors appear in the results. While I enjoy all the skaters I have noticed that some are not properly judged at the last levels of groups at Worlds.
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In recent years there have been as many as 47 or 48 men or ladies entered at some Worlds and Junior Worlds. That's already pushing the limits of 24-skater qual rounds. If the ISU continues to grow, soon it will be necessary to break the field into three groups instead of two.

Indeed, and let every contestant do A Qual Round and an Lp regardless of the increased amount of time it takes. The judges will be wide awake.
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If you want to get rid of the qual rounds completely, you either have to limit the numbers of countries who are allowed to send skaters to Worlds at all, which the smaller countries who make up the majority of the voting members would never approve, or else you need to break the short program or whatever you replace it with into two or more groups to be judged by separate panels, which would only compound the unfairness problem if the groups turn out to be of unequal strength.

I really don't want to get rid of the Quali Rd. I just want some skaters to be eliminated after the Quali Round (they have all shown their programs and should be happy) and then eliminate more after the SP because statiscally they would never reach the top 12 skaters in the elite 2 groups. You and I would lose out on seeing those skaters repeat their QR but is that so important? The judges will be intense for the Final LP. That's as it should be.
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If and when Code of Points scores become standardized enough that you can legitimately compare them across different competitions with different judging panels, it may be possible to use the actual scores rather than the rankings within the groups as the cutoff criterion, but not while the new system is still a work in progress.

Definitely. It will also show how statistically it will be impossible to have have 40 skaters in the LP with expectations of winning a medal (which is what the Sport is all about).
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gkelly - We are not so far apart in our thinking. We both want to see ALL the skaters in QR and most in the SP but we differ in the LP. You have a bigger heart than I have. I just think about the Sport and the drive to win a medal.

Cheers - Joe

gkelly · Jun 18, 2004

I think the main difference is that I don't think competition is only about winning medals. I think competing for a place in the top 10, or top 15 or top 20, is meaningful to many skaters and their federations. Even just qualifying for the long program, or getting out of quals to skate the short, is a big deal to some.

I also think that the skaters who are fighting for those spots this year might be fighting for medals next year. Young skaters mature, and competitive experience and exposure helps them. Injured skaters recover. Inconsistent skaters learn to be more consistent, or might just luck into a good week next year. Good skaters who bomb in the quals or the short program sometimes redeem themselves with top-5 performances in the next phase of the competition (and under an ordinal system, mix up the ordinals of some of the medal contenders). Do I need to name names?

I do not believe it is a waste of their time to skate the long program, nor is it a waste of the judges' time to judge them. Evidently you do. I strongly disagree with you on that point.

Are you saying that if I went to Prague I could check in the hotel and watch complete skating events (with a bottle of Pilsner, of course).

For Europeans, Worlds, and Olympics, usually yes.

Do you have any solution to this dilemna with ESPN?

No. Hope for the Ice Channel.

While I enjoy all the skaters I have noticed that some are not properly judged at the last levels of groups at Worlds.

I'm confused. By "the last levels" do you mean the chronologically later, higher-ranked groups? Do you think there are more mistakes in the judging of the medal contenders compared to the 19-24 group?

Indeed, and let every contestant do A Qual Round and an Lp regardless of the increased amount of time it takes. The judges will be wide awake.

The whole point of separating large groups into separate qualifying rounds is so that individual judges don't need to sit through the whole large groups. They use DIFFERENT PANELS for group A and group B, and group C etc. when they become necessary. (Just check out the numbers of qualifying rounds for intermediate ladies in some of the larger US regions.) Thus more qualifying rounds does not automatically translate into more fatigue for the judges, quite possibly less.

It does translate into more expense for the host organization, though.

I think any proposal to reduce the number of skaters in the final round to only 12 or 18 would be vigorously opposed by a large majority of ISU member federations, so it would never fly in reality.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 18, 2004

gkelly said:
I think the main difference is that I don't think competition is only about winning medals. I think competing for a place in the top 10, or top 15 or top 20, is meaningful to many skaters and their federations. Even just qualifying for the long program, or getting out of quals to skate the short, is a big deal to some

I can see that you don't look at skating as sport but that of a gathering of skaters for a 'look at what I can do'. As I said before you have big heart. Nobody loses, everybody wins. Am I correct?

I also think that the skaters who are fighting for those spots this year might be fighting for medals next year. Young skaters mature, and competitive experience and exposure helps them. Injured skaters recover. Inconsistent skaters learn to be more consistent, or might just luck into a good week next year. Good skaters who bomb in the quals or the short program sometimes redeem themselves with top-5 performances in the next phase of the competition (and under an ordinal system, mix up the ordinals of some of the medal contenders). Do I need to name names?

Tust me, those young(?) skaters who are eliminated will only work harder the following year if they had the determination to begin with.

I do not believe it is a waste of their time to skate the long program, nor is it a waste of the judges' time to judge them. Evidently you do. I strongly disagree with you on that point.

Please, the 'waste of time' phrases are yours not mine. Skaters never waste time, they compete. That's what it is all about...Competition!!! Otherwise it is just a gathering of skaters at a convention to show their wares.

For Europeans, Worlds, and Olympics, usually yes.

If you are living in Europe, you have a great advantage over the North Americans if everything you say is true about widespread TV coverage of major skating events.

I'm confused. By "the last levels" do you mean the chronologically later, higher-ranked groups? Do you think there are more mistakes in the judging of the medal contenders compared to the 19-24 group?

I'm also confused about the groups at Worlds. I call the top tier level, those skaters who are after the SP from 1-6 as group 1, and the skaters from 25 - 30 as group 6. I really don't mind watching those skaters in the 13-30 repeat their LPs again, I am just saying that that will have no relevance to the competition. However, since I have a little heart in me, I don't mind watching their LPs for the second time. But I am into the Sport more than the repeat of what they have already shown leading to nowhere. To me it's a loser's exhibition.

The whole point of separating large groups into separate qualifying rounds is so that individual judges don't need to sit through the whole large groups. They use DIFFERENT PANELS for group A and group B, and group C etc. when they become necessary. (Just check out the numbers of qualifying rounds for intermediate ladies in some of the larger US regions.) Thus more qualifying rounds does not automatically translate into more fatigue for the judges, quite possibly less.

If, I am corect, the 16 judges for the Event, is split in half for Group A and Group B. There are no extraneous judges for an event once it is set up.

I think any proposal to reduce the number of skaters in the final round to only 12 or 18 would be vigorously opposed by a large majority of ISU member federations, so it would never fly in reality.

but a skatiOf course not, let the host country pay for all this extra time. After all, it's not really a competition ng convention. I hope the box office receipts are high.

Joe

gkelly · Jun 18, 2004

Joesitz said:
I can see that you don't look at skating as sport but that of a gathering of skaters for a 'look at what I can do'.

Please, the 'waste of time' phrases are yours not mine. Skaters never waste time, they compete. That's what it is all about...Competition!!! Otherwise it is just a gathering of skaters at a convention to show their wares.

They compete for placements. Competing for a chance to move up, for example into the top 10, is just as much a competition as competing for medals.

I'm saying let as many COMPETE as is feasible, and you're the only person saying 24 long programs in the final round is not feasible. It's worked just fine for years already.

You're saying narrow the field to medal contenders only, denying more skaters the opportunity to complete the competition.

Sometimes the potential medal contenders in the final group bomb their LPs and drop below skaters from the 13-18 group who have skate better in the LP than they did in the short. But if you cut the field to 12 because that skater in 16th after the short has no chance at a medal, you also deny him the chance to beat 10 skaters ahead of him with his potentially medal-worthy freeskate.

I'm also confused about the groups at Worlds. I call the top tier level, those skaters who are after the SP from 1-6 as group 1, and the skaters from 25 - 30 as group 6.

Try referring to top and bottom, maybe?, since "last" and "first" have opposite and therefore confusing meanings depending whether you're referring to ranking or chronological order of skate.

I really don't mind watching those skaters in the 13-30 repeat their LPs again, I am just saying that that will have no relevance to the competition. However, since I have a little heart in me, I don't mind watching their LPs for the second time. But I am into the Sport more than the repeat of what they have already shown leading to nowhere. To me it's a loser's exhibition.

Oh, so you admit that you consider those skaters losers and don't consider their long programs competing?

I consider them competitors and the earlier (lower) groups just as fierce competition as the top group, it's just that the prizes are different -- bragging rights, smaller amounts of prize money, points for their country to earn an extra spot the next year, points toward ISU rankings that will get them GP invitations, and so forth. Just not those bronze, silver, and gold things.

If, I am corect, the 16 judges for the Event, is split in half for Group A and Group B. There are no extraneous judges for an event once it is set up.

Say we're talking about the men's event (same principle for the ladies, just later in the week and maybe a handful more skaters). Half of the judges drawn judge group A on Monday and half judge group B. So none of them has to judge more than 24 long programs that day (unless they're also on the pairs panel). That takes 3 1/2 to 4 hours for each group.

On Tuesday, a subset of them judge 30 short programs, which also takes about 4 hours.

On Thursday, they judge the top 24.

Monday is a long day of qual rounds for fans and media and officials who sit and watch both qual groups all the way through. But for the judges who are on one qual panel, the judging stint isn't any longer than for the other phases of the competition, maybe shorter if there are only, say, 21 skaters per qual group.

If you didn't have qual rounds, and let all 40+ skaters compete the short in one big group with a random draw, it would take closer to 6 hours and the best skaters might skate many hours apart. THAT is exactly the problem that qual rounds were designed to solve. The problem was never with the LP because they were already making a cut after the short.

So forget about Thursday and Saturday. How do you deal with 40-odd skaters on short program day?

Of course not, let the host country pay for all this extra time. After all, it's not really a competition ng convention. I hope the box office receipts are high.

The extra time and money is for the qual rounds, NOT for the long program.

The long program, however, is what sells tickets (and broadcast rights to more countries, if more countries have skaters in the final). And the prices for those tickets can be higher for an evening of 24 freeskates than for 12. Or if you only had 12 finalists in each discipline, you might as well combine two or more events on the same admission ticket and lose close to half the current number of ticket sales.

To repeat, the final is where the income comes from. It is not cost-effective to shorten it.

The qual rounds are where more money is spent than taken in. If you eliminate them, though, you either have to tell most countries they're not allowed to send any skaters at all to Worlds (a proposal guaranteed to fail in a vote) or allow almost 50 skaters into the short program (a lot more than 50 if you were going to lift the 3-skaters-per-country maximum) or divide the short program into separate groups with the same fairness problems that exist with the current qual rounds. You might save money for ice time by any of those measures, but I don't see how it does a better job of organizing the competition to get more valid results for the middle or the top of the field.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 19, 2004

gkelly - We are pulling hairs here.

1. Do you see the Worlds competition as a Sport or a Convention of Skaters?
2, Is the purpose of the Sport to select a podium of plaements or not?
3. What is your opinion on the 'feasibility' (your word) of limiting skaters to skate in all three phases, QR, SP and LP.

I'm saying let EVERYONE skate the Quali Rd then with that done, EVERONE who came to the Convention has now skated. They do not go home as a non-skater. From that phase, eliminate those skaters who do not make the cut as it is in othr SPORTS, eg. golf. ALL THE SKATERS HAVE HAD THEIR CHANCE TO SKATE IN THE QUALI ROUND! The aspects of a Convention has been satisfied. Those skaters eliminated can now go home feeling satisfied they did their thing and taking with them a learned experience and what they have to do next year.

After the SP, there could be more eliminated because we are now in the SPORT of Figure Skating . All skaters have skated once and some went on to skate again in the SP. Those who were eliminated after the SP can go home feeling quite competent that hey had their chance and moreso have learned a good deal about their skating world competitions.

Now that every contestant has skated at least once we are now in the final phase of filling the podium. How many go on to the LP is the source of our discussion. I am for 12 skaters whom I see having a chance albeit slim for most, at a medal. You seem to want everyone back for the experience. We have to agree to disagree on this.

This will be my last time for pulling hairs. I would appreciate it if you would reply to the first three questions of this post.

Cheers - Joe

Jaana · Jun 19, 2004

I would like to see no qualification rounds for seeded skaters in important senior competitons (Europeans - which happens now - and Worlds). With the skaters that are not seeded, a QR is okay. I´m happy with 30 skaters being in short programme, but on the other hand maybe 25 would be a selection wide enough?

I kind of agree with Joe, but I would like to see maybe 15-18 skaters selected for the freeskate.

Marjaana

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gkelly · Jun 19, 2004

Joesitz said:
1. Do you see the Worlds competition as a Sport or a Convention of Skaters?

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. The skating world convenes for the competitors to compete at their sport.

2, Is the purpose of the Sport to select a podium of plaements or not?

That is only one purpose of the sport. I think that skaters who are not going to reach the podium at this particular event are still engaging in SPORT when they compete against each other.

3. What is your opinion on the 'feasibility' (your word) of limiting skaters to skate in all three phases, QR, SP and LP.

So far the limits of feasibility seem to be about 4 hours for any given panel of judges at the world level.

It might become somewhat larger with the code of points, but not indefinitely.

24 or occasionally 20 skaters has been the norm for long programs at Worlds with and without figures, with and without qual rounds. There was almost always a cut made after the short program when necessary.

The length of the long program final after that cut was never the problem to be addressed, because it already had been addressed by making a cut after the short. After they tried cutting to 20 in 1989-91 (i.e., both with and without figures), they went back to 24, so evidently 24 long programs was not considered too much to handle compared to the benefits of including four full flights of skaters.

The reason qual rounds had to be instituted were:
1) no more figures
2) a lot more skaters from a lot more countries entering the event

Short programs of 40 or more skaters was what was unfeasible.

I don't see any reason to reduce the length of the final round, which is where the most income comes from, when judges will still need to deal with competitions of that size in the earlier phase(s) of the event.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 19, 2004

Quote:
The reason qual rounds had to be instituted were:
1) no more figures
2) a lot more skaters from a lot more countries entering the event
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From what you write, the purpose of the school figures and the Qaul Rd was to iliminate skaters from the Free Skate which is what I've been writing about all along.

1.The school figures were meant to iliminate skaters from the total score which they could never achieve to earn a thrid place medal. I know this. I skated them. There was a calculation that prohibited skaters from going into the Free Skate. Sometime 12 skaters did make the cut. There was not limit as long as they made the cut.. (Have you skated way back when or maybe your offspring has?)

2. The more skaters the tougher to win, but more losers too. It's not easy for the skater who earns a placement of 54 to be reminded of that. Trust me, the skater is thinking about quitting or working harder next year and forgetting that placement number..

From the Dortmund World, Skaters all got placements after the Quali Rd; after the SP round, and indeed, after the LP round. whether or not they were iliminated. This is not about placements because every skater got a placement. They may not have liked their placement but they got one!!! I don't see the discussion going on about placements when there are placements.
However, how the CoP will do is yet to be seen..

Joe

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 19, 2004

Prasie to be Jaana, We arfe back to topic and not worrying about placements.

It seems the original thread was like a suspicion that the qual round was going to be dropped at ALL competitions not just the 4CC (never thought they had that many contestants) and the Euros (don't know how many show up for that event)

If that means we go right into the SP (I have no problem with that) because the quali is dropped do we know if this phase of the competition will also serve as an illimination process, too?

Will they be using the CoP and if so will skaters be seeded for the TV event, at least in the Us. If the new rule holds up for Worlds, I can not see the US networks showing 40 plus SPs/ The sponsors will only want to pay for las creme de la creme. I can't imagine what will be done with the LP..

Anyhway we can get more information on this turn of events?

Joe

hockeyfan228 · Jun 21, 2004

The only thing that bothers me about having 20-24 skaters/teams in the LP/FD is that the ice is resurfaced after every two groups. That means that the final group of the top six skaters/four-five teams in the world at that moment is skating on bad, choppy ice. You'd think they could start the LP/FD 15 minutes earlier so that the final group would get freshly zambonied ice before the biggest event of the year.

icenut84 · Jun 21, 2004

Joesitz said:
and the Euros (don't know how many show up for that event)

A lot. Enough that there's almost always a qualifying round. Around the same number of skaters as go to Worlds, I think.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 22, 2004

Icenut - Thanks for reply. Any reason you may know why the ISU is cutting the Quali Round out expecially out of Euros.?

This will be Euros biggest draw. I know several Americans are going to Torino for the Euros because they find the cost for the Olys prohibitive. Will they use the CoP?

Joe

The demise of the Qualifying Round

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