The demise of the Qualifying Round

[gkelly]

For years people were saying that the whole reason for having the QR count toward the final score was so that 1) the SP was ranked in a more TV friendly manner and that 2) seeded skaters took it more seriously.

My understanding is that the main reason for having the qualifying round count was to make it an official part of the competition, to give the skaters who don't make the final a ranking and official recognition that they competed at Worlds and not just in some preliminary that doesn't count.

Well, if TV is showing less and less interest in skating, why cater to them? And if the only reason to have a QR is to save judges fatique in the SP (a concept I'm stiil not buying) than who cares if the seeded skaters are taking it seriously or not?

Using the qual round results to seed the SP helps TV because they don't have to tape or show the earlier groups and would better be able to show the final group or groups live (not that ABC/ESPN ever did, but Eurosport often does, and other countries' national stations might when the time zones work out favorably).

That function is not inextricably tied to having the qual rounds count, even though it was voted in at the same time (started in 1999). Even if the qual placements or scores don't count toward the overall placement, the results could still be used to seed the short.

The issue of fatigue has to do with the size of the field. In 1992 there were 40 ladies and 35 men at Worlds, and the cut was made after the (randomly seeded) short program. That was with a "unified team" from the recently fragmented Soviet Union.

Beginning in 1993 there were all of a sudden a bunch of separate former Soviet countries each sending skaters to Worlds, and there has also been growth in the number of new skating countries from Asia and elsewhere joining the ISU and sending skaters. Judging 35-40 skaters in random order had already proved to be a strain on the judges, and the problem was only going to get worse as the fields continued to grow. That's why qualifying rounds were instituted in the first place, beginning in 1993.

In recent years there have been as many as 47 or 48 men or ladies entered at some Worlds and Junior Worlds. That's already pushing the limits of 24-skater qual rounds. If the ISU continues to grow, soon it will be necessary to break the field into three groups instead of two.

If you want to get rid of the qual rounds completely, you either have to limit the numbers of countries who are allowed to send skaters to Worlds at all, which the smaller countries who make up the majority of the voting members would never approve, or else you need to break the short program or whatever you replace it with into two or more groups to be judged by separate panels, which would only compound the unfairness problem if the groups turn out to be of unequal strength.

If and when Code of Points scores become standardized enough that you can legitimately compare them across different competitions with different judging panels, it may be possible to use the actual scores rather than the rankings within the groups as the cutoff criterion, but not while the new system is still a work in progress.

[berthes ghost]

Thanks so much for the information gkelly!

[Grgranny]

We went to the 92 Worlds. So exciting.
I don't remember how many there were, but there were way too many for one afternoon. It got out really late. Everyone was asking if they all were to skate in the final. They started the long programs an hour earlier than planned but had cut it down considerably. Some of them were so bad they could hardly stand up on the ice. That part is no fun to watch.

[Joesitz]

My understanding is that the main reason for having the qualifying round count was to make it an official part of the competition, to give the skaters who don't make the final a ranking and official recognition that they competed at Worlds and not just in some preliminary that doesn't count.

So by all means, let's keep the Qual Round but why let some of those skaters do it again in the LP? If there were a way for them to medal, I would say OK, let them skate. But there isn't. No skater has moved from 30th place to 3rd place. But for those and I am including myself who want to be spectators, we want to see more and more skating even the few who were just elimated. So the competition is more of an exhibition than a Sport? Am I correct?
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Using the qual round results to seed the SP helps TV because they don't have to tape or show the earlier groups and would better be able to show the final group or groups live (not that ABC/ESPN ever did, but Eurosport often does, and other countries' national stations might when the time zones work out favorably).

Are you saying that if I went to Prague I could check in the hotel and watch complete skating events (with a bottle of Pilsner, of course). Do you have any solution to this dilemna with ESPN?
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The issue of fatigue has to do with the size of the field. In 1992 there were 40 ladies and 35 men at Worlds, and the cut was made after the (randomly seeded) short program. That was with a "unified team" from the recently fragmented Soviet Union.

Fatigue has been studied with scoreing papers by teachers (judges) and found that the more papers to score the more errors appear in the results. While I enjoy all the skaters I have noticed that some are not properly judged at the last levels of groups at Worlds.
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In recent years there have been as many as 47 or 48 men or ladies entered at some Worlds and Junior Worlds. That's already pushing the limits of 24-skater qual rounds. If the ISU continues to grow, soon it will be necessary to break the field into three groups instead of two.

Indeed, and let every contestant do A Qual Round and an Lp regardless of the increased amount of time it takes. The judges will be wide awake.
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If you want to get rid of the qual rounds completely, you either have to limit the numbers of countries who are allowed to send skaters to Worlds at all, which the smaller countries who make up the majority of the voting members would never approve, or else you need to break the short program or whatever you replace it with into two or more groups to be judged by separate panels, which would only compound the unfairness problem if the groups turn out to be of unequal strength.

I really don't want to get rid of the Quali Rd. I just want some skaters to be eliminated after the Quali Round (they have all shown their programs and should be happy) and then eliminate more after the SP because statiscally they would never reach the top 12 skaters in the elite 2 groups. You and I would lose out on seeing those skaters repeat their QR but is that so important? The judges will be intense for the Final LP. That's as it should be.
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If and when Code of Points scores become standardized enough that you can legitimately compare them across different competitions with different judging panels, it may be possible to use the actual scores rather than the rankings within the groups as the cutoff criterion, but not while the new system is still a work in progress.

Definitely. It will also show how statistically it will be impossible to have have 40 skaters in the LP with expectations of winning a medal (which is what the Sport is all about).
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gkelly - We are not so far apart in our thinking. We both want to see ALL the skaters in QR and most in the SP but we differ in the LP. You have a bigger heart than I have. I just think about the Sport and the drive to win a medal.

Cheers - Joe

[gkelly]

I think the main difference is that I don't think competition is only about winning medals. I think competing for a place in the top 10, or top 15 or top 20, is meaningful to many skaters and their federations. Even just qualifying for the long program, or getting out of quals to skate the short, is a big deal to some.

I also think that the skaters who are fighting for those spots this year might be fighting for medals next year. Young skaters mature, and competitive experience and exposure helps them. Injured skaters recover. Inconsistent skaters learn to be more consistent, or might just luck into a good week next year. Good skaters who bomb in the quals or the short program sometimes redeem themselves with top-5 performances in the next phase of the competition (and under an ordinal system, mix up the ordinals of some of the medal contenders). Do I need to name names?

I do not believe it is a waste of their time to skate the long program, nor is it a waste of the judges' time to judge them. Evidently you do. I strongly disagree with you on that point.

Are you saying that if I went to Prague I could check in the hotel and watch complete skating events (with a bottle of Pilsner, of course).

For Europeans, Worlds, and Olympics, usually yes.

Do you have any solution to this dilemna with ESPN?

No. Hope for the Ice Channel.

While I enjoy all the skaters I have noticed that some are not properly judged at the last levels of groups at Worlds.

I'm confused. By "the last levels" do you mean the chronologically later, higher-ranked groups? Do you think there are more mistakes in the judging of the medal contenders compared to the 19-24 group?

Indeed, and let every contestant do A Qual Round and an Lp regardless of the increased amount of time it takes. The judges will be wide awake.

The whole point of separating large groups into separate qualifying rounds is so that individual judges don't need to sit through the whole large groups. They use DIFFERENT PANELS for group A and group B, and group C etc. when they become necessary. (Just check out the numbers of qualifying rounds for intermediate ladies in some of the larger US regions.) Thus more qualifying rounds does not automatically translate into more fatigue for the judges, quite possibly less.

It does translate into more expense for the host organization, though.

I think any proposal to reduce the number of skaters in the final round to only 12 or 18 would be vigorously opposed by a large majority of ISU member federations, so it would never fly in reality.

[Joesitz]

I think the main difference is that I don't think competition is only about winning medals. I think competing for a place in the top 10, or top 15 or top 20, is meaningful to many skaters and their federations. Even just qualifying for the long program, or getting out of quals to skate the short, is a big deal to some

I can see that you don't look at skating as sport but that of a gathering of skaters for a 'look at what I can do'. As I said before you have big heart. Nobody loses, everybody wins. Am I correct?[B]


I also think that the skaters who are fighting for those spots this year might be fighting for medals next year. Young skaters mature, and competitive experience and exposure helps them. Injured skaters recover. Inconsistent skaters learn to be more consistent, or might just luck into a good week next year. Good skaters who bomb in the quals or the short program sometimes redeem themselves with top-5 performances in the next phase of the competition (and under an ordinal system, mix up the ordinals of some of the medal contenders). Do I need to name names?

Tust me, those young(?) skaters who are eliminated will only work harder the following year if they had the determination to begin with.

I do not believe it is a waste of their time to skate the long program, nor is it a waste of the judges' time to judge them. Evidently you do. I strongly disagree with you on that point.

Please, the 'waste of time' phrases are yours not mine. Skaters never waste time, they compete. That's what it is all about...Competition!!! Otherwise it is just a gathering of skaters at a convention to show their wares.

For Europeans, Worlds, and Olympics, usually yes.

If you are living in Europe, you have a great advantage over the North Americans if everything you say is true about widespread TV coverage of major skating events.

I'm confused. By "the last levels" do you mean the chronologically later, higher-ranked groups? Do you think there are more mistakes in the judging of the medal contenders compared to the 19-24 group?

I'm also confused about the groups at Worlds. I call the top tier level, those skaters who are after the SP from 1-6 as group 1, and the skaters from 25 - 30 as group 6. I really don't mind watching those skaters in the 13-30 repeat their LPs again, I am just saying that that will have no relevance to the competition. However, since I have a little heart in me, I don't mind watching their LPs for the second time. But I am into the Sport more than the repeat of what they have already shown leading to nowhere. To me it's a loser's exhibition.



The whole point of separating large groups into separate qualifying rounds is so that individual judges don't need to sit through the whole large groups. They use DIFFERENT PANELS for group A and group B, and group C etc. when they become necessary. (Just check out the numbers of qualifying rounds for intermediate ladies in some of the larger US regions.) Thus more qualifying rounds does not automatically translate into more fatigue for the judges, quite possibly less.

If, I am corect, the 16 judges for the Event, is split in half for Group A and Group B. There are no extraneous judges for an event once it is set up.

I think any proposal to reduce the number of skaters in the final round to only 12 or 18 would be vigorously opposed by a large majority of ISU member federations, so it would never fly in reality.

but a skatiOf course not, let the host country pay for all this extra time. After all, it's not really a competition ng convention. I hope the box office receipts are high.

Joe

[gkelly]

I can see that you don't look at skating as sport but that of a gathering of skaters for a 'look at what I can do'.

Please, the 'waste of time' phrases are yours not mine. Skaters never waste time, they compete. That's what it is all about...Competition!!! Otherwise it is just a gathering of skaters at a convention to show their wares.

They compete for placements. Competing for a chance to move up, for example into the top 10, is just as much a competition as competing for medals.

I'm saying let as many COMPETE as is feasible, and you're the only person saying 24 long programs in the final round is not feasible. It's worked just fine for years already.

You're saying narrow the field to medal contenders only, denying more skaters the opportunity to complete the competition.

Sometimes the potential medal contenders in the final group bomb their LPs and drop below skaters from the 13-18 group who have skate better in the LP than they did in the short. But if you cut the field to 12 because that skater in 16th after the short has no chance at a medal, you also deny him the chance to beat 10 skaters ahead of him with his potentially medal-worthy freeskate.

I'm also confused about the groups at Worlds. I call the top tier level, those skaters who are after the SP from 1-6 as group 1, and the skaters from 25 - 30 as group 6.

Try referring to top and bottom, maybe?, since "last" and "first" have opposite and therefore confusing meanings depending whether you're referring to ranking or chronological order of skate.

I really don't mind watching those skaters in the 13-30 repeat their LPs again, I am just saying that that will have no relevance to the competition. However, since I have a little heart in me, I don't mind watching their LPs for the second time. But I am into the Sport more than the repeat of what they have already shown leading to nowhere. To me it's a loser's exhibition.

Oh, so you admit that you consider those skaters losers and don't consider their long programs competing?

I consider them competitors and the earlier (lower) groups just as fierce competition as the top group, it's just that the prizes are different -- bragging rights, smaller amounts of prize money, points for their country to earn an extra spot the next year, points toward ISU rankings that will get them GP invitations, and so forth. Just not those bronze, silver, and gold things.

If, I am corect, the 16 judges for the Event, is split in half for Group A and Group B. There are no extraneous judges for an event once it is set up.

Say we're talking about the men's event (same principle for the ladies, just later in the week and maybe a handful more skaters). Half of the judges drawn judge group A on Monday and half judge group B. So none of them has to judge more than 24 long programs that day (unless they're also on the pairs panel). That takes 3 1/2 to 4 hours for each group.

On Tuesday, a subset of them judge 30 short programs, which also takes about 4 hours.

On Thursday, they judge the top 24.

Monday is a long day of qual rounds for fans and media and officials who sit and watch both qual groups all the way through. But for the judges who are on one qual panel, the judging stint isn't any longer than for the other phases of the competition, maybe shorter if there are only, say, 21 skaters per qual group.

If you didn't have qual rounds, and let all 40+ skaters compete the short in one big group with a random draw, it would take closer to 6 hours and the best skaters might skate many hours apart. THAT is exactly the problem that qual rounds were designed to solve. The problem was never with the LP because they were already making a cut after the short.

So forget about Thursday and Saturday. How do you deal with 40-odd skaters on short program day?

Of course not, let the host country pay for all this extra time. After all, it's not really a competition ng convention. I hope the box office receipts are high.

The extra time and money is for the qual rounds, NOT for the long program.

The long program, however, is what sells tickets (and broadcast rights to more countries, if more countries have skaters in the final). And the prices for those tickets can be higher for an evening of 24 freeskates than for 12. Or if you only had 12 finalists in each discipline, you might as well combine two or more events on the same admission ticket and lose close to half the current number of ticket sales.

To repeat, the final is where the income comes from. It is not cost-effective to shorten it.

The qual rounds are where more money is spent than taken in. If you eliminate them, though, you either have to tell most countries they're not allowed to send any skaters at all to Worlds (a proposal guaranteed to fail in a vote) or allow almost 50 skaters into the short program (a lot more than 50 if you were going to lift the 3-skaters-per-country maximum) or divide the short program into separate groups with the same fairness problems that exist with the current qual rounds. You might save money for ice time by any of those measures, but I don't see how it does a better job of organizing the competition to get more valid results for the middle or the top of the field.

[Joesitz]

gkelly - We are pulling hairs here.

1. Do you see the Worlds competition as a Sport or a Convention of Skaters?
2, Is the purpose of the Sport to select a podium of plaements or not?
3. What is your opinion on the 'feasibility' (your word) of limiting skaters to skate in all three phases, QR, SP and LP.


I'm saying let EVERYONE skate the Quali Rd then with that done, EVERONE who came to the Convention has now skated. They do not go home as a non-skater. From that phase, eliminate those skaters who do not make the cut as it is in othr SPORTS, eg. golf. ALL THE SKATERS HAVE HAD THEIR CHANCE TO SKATE IN THE QUALI ROUND! The aspects of a Convention has been satisfied. Those skaters eliminated can now go home feeling satisfied they did their thing and taking with them a learned experience and what they have to do next year.

After the SP, there could be more eliminated because we are now in the SPORT of Figure Skating . All skaters have skated once and some went on to skate again in the SP. Those who were eliminated after the SP can go home feeling quite competent that hey had their chance and moreso have learned a good deal about their skating world competitions.

Now that every contestant has skated at least once we are now in the final phase of filling the podium. How many go on to the LP is the source of our discussion. I am for 12 skaters whom I see having a chance albeit slim for most, at a medal. You seem to want everyone back for the experience. We have to agree to disagree on this.

This will be my last time for pulling hairs. I would appreciate it if you would reply to the first three questions of this post.

Cheers - Joe

[Jaana]

I would like to see no qualification rounds for seeded skaters in important senior competitons (Europeans - which happens now - and Worlds). With the skaters that are not seeded, a QR is okay. I´m happy with 30 skaters being in short programme, but on the other hand maybe 25 would be a selection wide enough?

I kind of agree with Joe, but I would like to see maybe 15-18 skaters selected for the freeskate.

Marjaana

Ilia Kulik photos & photolinks
http://koti.welho.com/mjylha2/index.html
Updated June 14, 2004: http://koti.welho.com/mjylha2/index07i.html

[gkelly]

1. Do you see the Worlds competition as a Sport or a Convention of Skaters?

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. The skating world convenes for the competitors to compete at their sport.

2, Is the purpose of the Sport to select a podium of plaements or not?

That is only one purpose of the sport. I think that skaters who are not going to reach the podium at this particular event are still engaging in SPORT when they compete against each other.

3. What is your opinion on the 'feasibility' (your word) of limiting skaters to skate in all three phases, QR, SP and LP.

So far the limits of feasibility seem to be about 4 hours for any given panel of judges at the world level.

It might become somewhat larger with the code of points, but not indefinitely.

24 or occasionally 20 skaters has been the norm for long programs at Worlds with and without figures, with and without qual rounds. There was almost always a cut made after the short program when necessary.

The length of the long program final after that cut was never the problem to be addressed, because it already had been addressed by making a cut after the short. After they tried cutting to 20 in 1989-91 (i.e., both with and without figures), they went back to 24, so evidently 24 long programs was not considered too much to handle compared to the benefits of including four full flights of skaters.

The reason qual rounds had to be instituted were:
1) no more figures
2) a lot more skaters from a lot more countries entering the event

Short programs of 40 or more skaters was what was unfeasible.

I don't see any reason to reduce the length of the final round, which is where the most income comes from, when judges will still need to deal with competitions of that size in the earlier phase(s) of the event.

[Joesitz]

Quote:
The reason qual rounds had to be instituted were:
1) no more figures
2) a lot more skaters from a lot more countries entering the event
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From what you write, the purpose of the school figures and the Qaul Rd was to iliminate skaters from the Free Skate which is what I've been writing about all along.

1.The school figures were meant to iliminate skaters from the total score which they could never achieve to earn a thrid place medal. I know this. I skated them. There was a calculation that prohibited skaters from going into the Free Skate. Sometime 12 skaters did make the cut. There was not limit as long as they made the cut.. (Have you skated way back when or maybe your offspring has?)

2. The more skaters the tougher to win, but more losers too. It's not easy for the skater who earns a placement of 54 to be reminded of that. Trust me, the skater is thinking about quitting or working harder next year and forgetting that placement number..

From the Dortmund World, Skaters all got placements after the Quali Rd; after the SP round, and indeed, after the LP round. whether or not they were iliminated. This is not about placements because every skater got a placement. They may not have liked their placement but they got one!!! I don't see the discussion going on about placements when there are placements.
However, how the CoP will do is yet to be seen..

Joe

[Joesitz]

Prasie to be Jaana, We arfe back to topic and not worrying about placements.

It seems the original thread was like a suspicion that the qual round was going to be dropped at ALL competitions not just the 4CC (never thought they had that many contestants) and the Euros (don't know how many show up for that event)

If that means we go right into the SP (I have no problem with that) because the quali is dropped do we know if this phase of the competition will also serve as an illimination process, too?

Will they be using the CoP and if so will skaters be seeded for the TV event, at least in the Us. If the new rule holds up for Worlds, I can not see the US networks showing 40 plus SPs/ The sponsors will only want to pay for las creme de la creme. I can't imagine what will be done with the LP..

Anyhway we can get more information on this turn of events?

Joe

[hockeyfan228]

The only thing that bothers me about having 20-24 skaters/teams in the LP/FD is that the ice is resurfaced after every two groups. That means that the final group of the top six skaters/four-five teams in the world at that moment is skating on bad, choppy ice. You'd think they could start the LP/FD 15 minutes earlier so that the final group would get freshly zambonied ice before the biggest event of the year.

[icenut84]

and the Euros (don't know how many show up for that event)

A lot. Enough that there's almost always a qualifying round. Around the same number of skaters as go to Worlds, I think.

[Joesitz]

Icenut - Thanks for reply. Any reason you may know why the ISU is cutting the Quali Round out expecially out of Euros.?

This will be Euros biggest draw. I know several Americans are going to Torino for the Euros because they find the cost for the Olys prohibitive. Will they use the CoP?

Joe