Multiple quads: Progression/ jump contest?

supsu · Nov 8, 2015

Now that men's figure skating has taken a new step with Jin Boyang's jump content and pairs' arms race with quad throws I thought that maybe you guys want to share your thoughts on the progression of our sport. When is it too much and only adding the risk of injury and taking away from the beauty of the sport? Or is it good to constantly move forward because of figure skating IS a sport? How can we balance the two aspects of the sport? Should there be a limit maybe in the short program and allow everything in the "free" program? One thing i find hard to understand and it's the weird rules in pairs' short program not allowing quad twists or throws.. If we are allowing them in men's or ladies' then it seems unfair to not include pairs in the quad racing too.

Interestingly, Joshua Farris shared his opinion (I'm assuming after Boyang's short program) regarding the subject too on twitter, saying: "Calling it figure skating is debatable. I'm tired of seeing my friends hurting themselves just to do the most jumps."

andromache · Nov 8, 2015

It's really weird that no quads are allowed in the pairs SP. They really need to change that rule next year because it's a little absurd at this point. More pairs can do quads than ladies can do triple axels, but they changed the rules on that for the ladies. More pairs can do quads than men can do 2 quads in the SP, and yet the 2 quads are for men are allowed. It's just odd.

I'm not worried about anything yet. Jin Boyang will still lose to better all-around skaters until he improves the other aspects of his skating. There's still a lot of beauty in pairs. I just hope skaters are being careful.

ETA: Okay, I'm not quite NOT worried about anything. I'm somewhat worried for the safety of young skaters who may feel pressured to attempt these jumps by coaches/parents/etc and injure themselves. But as for older skaters, it's up to them to decide to take the risk and train intelligently. I feel like D/R and K/S and their coaches know what they're doing, for example. (And I still feel like it's going to be a long while before we see junior pairs training quads, IMO.) But the potential for novice and junior boys to do something to their bodies while training difficult quads? Yikes.

Sam-Skwantch · Nov 8, 2015

I said this in the men's FS thread but it seems applicable here too. If a skater went out and attacked their PCS as much as Boyang attacked his TES then people would be lining up to praise them. It's good to see multiple dimensions to the sport and I'm in full support of him doing it.

Keep going Boyang!!!

I'm used to seeing people do far riskier things than a quad in sports so I'm not really concerned with it. If a skater feels comfortable doing it then they should be free to and it should be rewarded.

I don't really agree with Josh on this matter.

Violet Bliss · Nov 8, 2015

Unlike most sports, figure skating provides many point scoring opportunities with different skills and aspects so a skater can make it up for what is lacking in one element or component. However, jumps offer the highest rewards along with the risk so naturally many will focus on them. Sports are sports and athletes will always go for breaking current limits.

Maybe raising the PCS value will help balance it up and offer a better chance for those who don't go for extreme TES with jumps, as well as promoting the artistic aspects of figure skating for the fans and the public. PCS is supposed to be about equal to TES in value but it has a limit while TES does not so it's TES that many focus on raising with more and more highest value elements, i.e. quads, sometimes beyond what is safe currently and for the future.

I say, let them jump, but let them skate and perform as well.

Interspectator · Nov 8, 2015

I think there has to be some sort of counter balance for the super high PCS that the front runners (Chan, Yuzu, Fernandez, Denis) can pull. -Enter Boyang Jin. There is no one else who can land a quad lutz like him. So I don't mind if the judges give him Crazy TES for his Crazy quad content.

This year we've seen a program with 1quad and 1 triple axel pull in a score of 190. -So, if Jin's program with 4(flawed) quads and 2 triple axels pulls a score of 170 or so, I'm not too bothered.
What would bother me, is if the judges start giving him higher PCS before he actually improves his components. As it is right now, I think he's being scored fairly (compared to other skaters at COC, that is.)

As for injuries, I do worry if young skaters are pressured to training quads too early. I agree with the rule that keeps the quad out of the SP for Junior skaters.

Bumdid · Nov 8, 2015

I agree with anyone that say that the coaches should be really careful in making sure their skaters are doing well physically when training for the quads.

I don't necessarily agree with Josh even though I like him as a skater. I think different people have different strength. As long as its reflected properly in their marks I would be okay with that (i.e Someone like Jin/Kovtun/Aaron should be getting high TES but somewhat low PCS, especially for transition). And honestly, it's no like all of these technical skaters don't know that they need to improve their presentation mark. Why else would Max Aaron be working with Phillips Mill? Jin also said that he wanted to improve his skating skills, etc. So obviously, they know its their weaknesses. Again the key is to have the scoring system properly reflect it to motivate them to improve in all aspects.

Interspectator · Nov 8, 2015

Actually, I take back the word 'pressured' a young skater/ athlete, who loves to jump is not going to need any pressure to try as many quads as he can. All he has to do is watch Boyang's SP and think, 'Wow, that's the way to go!' 'Let's try that at the home rink.' This is where a coach or trainer is going to have to rein the kid in and tell him to take it easy, and not over-do it. I hope that aspiring skaters around the world have a wise and caring coach.

Mathman · Nov 8, 2015

Interspectator said:
This is where a coach or trainer is going to have to rein the kid in and tell him to take it easy, and not over-do it.

A losing battle, I fear. "Hey, Billy, go sit down and stop doing all those crazy quads all over the place."

Tara Lipinski reportedly was so aggressive in her training of the triple loop/triple loop that the coach would have to call in her mother to physically drag her off the ice after 20 or so repetitions.

Interspectator · Nov 8, 2015

Mathman said:
A losing battle, I fear. "Hey, Billy, go sit down and stop doing all those crazy quads all over the place."

Tara Lipinski reportedly was so aggressive in her training of the triple loop/triple loop that the coach would have to call in her mother to physically drag her off the ice after 20 or so repetitions.

One can hope.:sad46:..but in that case, should quads be banned from the junior competitions entirely? There is no doubt that landing quads takes a tremendous toll on the body. One side of me thinks that would be in the skater's best interest, and the other side thinks, these are athletes, let them do what they do best.

Mathman · Nov 8, 2015

Interspectator said:
One can hope.:sad46:..but in that case, should quads be banned from the junior competitions entirely? There is no doubt that landing quads takes a tremendous toll on the body. One side of me thinks that would be in the skater's best interest, and the other side thinks, these are athletes, let them do what they do best.

It's hard to know what to do. In little league baseball in the U.S. there used to be a rule that pitchers werre not allowed to train a curve ball until they were 12 -- the point being that younger children might permanently ruin their elbows.

4everchan · Nov 8, 2015

Violet Bliss said:
Unlike most sports, figure skating provides many point scoring opportunities with different skills and aspects so a skater can make it up for what is lacking in one element or component. However, jumps offer the highest rewards along with the risk so naturally many will focus on them. Sports are sports and athletes will always go for breaking current limits.

Maybe raising the PCS value will help balance it up and offer a better chance for those who don't go for extreme TES with jumps, as well as promoting the artistic aspects of figure skating for the fans and the public. PCS is supposed to be about equal to TES in value but it has a limit while TES does not so it's TES that many focus on raising with more and more highest value elements, i.e. quads, sometimes beyond what is safe currently and for the future.

I say, let them jump, but let them skate and perform as well.

I would agree with raising PCS only if the judges really considered it separately...for real

which is rarely the case...

we tend to see the PCS go up and down depending on what is landed or not in a program.

semosk8tfan · Nov 8, 2015

I'm with Josh on this one. The things I love most about skating are the beautiful programs with artistry, edges and flow. Since the quad became the holy grail of men's skating, most competitions resemble splatfests. There are some men who can consistently land a quad but for most the following happens: opening pose, crossovers to gain speed, quad attempt, fall, mediocre program to follow. This is repeated multiple times throughout the event. It ruins a lot of competitions for me. And then there is the toll it takes on the bodies of these men: bruises, hip problems, back injuries, concussions. You have to wonder what the long term effect is going to be, I mean look at Plushenko. It is scary. My Mom used to say "just because you can doesn't mean you should" and I think this applies to all these crazy quad jumps and throws.

Blades of Passion · Nov 8, 2015

Boyang going for all those jumps is great to see. He obviously has a talent for it and enjoys doing it. I worry about if it's a detriment to longevity/consistency as well, but these issues have been around for decades with regards to the increasing technical standard. The most important thing is for training, technique, and coaching to all be as good as possible to minimize the chances of injury. And as for longevity, Mao Asada has been pushing the technical side of ladies skating for 10 years. She's still out there doing it. Going for 6 quads per competition is definitely different, though. We'll have to see how Boyang holds up.

The MORE exciting case than Boyang at the moment is Hanyu, who could potentially score almost 110 on technical in the LP while also having top-class skating and performance quality.

supsu said:
One thing i find hard to understand and it's the weird rules in pairs' short program not allowing quad twists or throws.

We'll be getting the Quad in the Pairs SP next season, for sure.

Mista Ekko · Nov 9, 2015

Blades of Passion said:
We'll be getting the Quad in the Pairs SP next season, for sure.

I think that specific committee is very Russian oriented (Or has been in recent years), So it'll have to be in their interest somehow,
Maybe if T\M improve in the Rankings and get a Quad Twist.

karne · Nov 9, 2015

Citius, altius, fortius.

For me, it cannot be a sport if the boundaries of athletic accomplishment are not being pushed. But, I would also like to see it done safely, that these skaters might be able to run around after their children and grandchildren at some future time.

I understand what Josh is saying. I even feel the same way, to an extent. I too am tired of hearing of the latest injury.

But Josh also knows that it's not just the quad that is the only danger jump. It wasn't the quad that broke his leg...

Meoima · Nov 9, 2015

Blades of Passion said:
Boyang going for all those jumps is great to see. He obviously has a talent for it and enjoys doing it. I worry about if it's a detriment to longevity/consistency as well, but these issues have been around for decades with regards to the increasing technical standard. The most important thing is for training, technique, and coaching to all be as good as possible to minimize the chances of injury. And as for longevity, Mao Asada has been pushing the technical side of ladies skating for 10 years. She's still out there doing it. Going for 6 quads per competition is definitely different, though. We'll have to see how Boyang holds up.
The MORE exciting case than Boyang at the moment is Hanyu, who could potentially score almost 110 on technical in the LP while also having top-class skating and performance quality.
We'll be getting the Quad in the Pairs SP next season, for sure.

Yuzuru also landed Quad lutz in practice per Orser's words, Johnny Weir also said during ice shows in Japan Yuzuru was praciticing quad Lutz too.

However it seems Orser forbid him to do more. Orser said he made a promise to keep Yuzuru healthy until the next Olympic, so I think the posibility of Yuzuru bringing the quad Lutz into competition is not high. Quad lutz might be too dangerous for him and too many quads might be too much for Yuzuru's body. I think Orser is taking it slowly in this case.

And I hope Yuzuru will not go for the 4A, it's too dangerous.

Even quad Loop, Yuzuru is only allowed to practice it when Orser say yes. Yuzuru was forbid to practice quad Loop for like 4 months during last season. Only after WC in Shanghai, Orser said ok so Yuzuru is practicing it again. If this season goes well, maybe Yuzuru will bring quad Loop next season in the LP and he will do 2 quads in the SP per his words.

I don't know how it is on Boyang's side. What about his coaches' intention, what about Boyang's body's development... etc Boyang is just 17 turning 18. Of course, each skater has different approach and maybe Boyang's body can handle more. But still I feel kind of scared for his health in the long run.

alia jackson · Nov 9, 2015

Just checking everyone b'day :biggrin:

Boyang just turned 18 (Oct 3, 1997), same age range with Shoma who will turn 18 on Dec 17th (1997). Just realised that Nam is 17, younger than them by ~ 6 months (May 20, 1998).

HanDomi · Nov 9, 2015

Blades of Passion said:
The MORE exciting case than Boyang at the moment is Hanyu, who could potentially score almost 110 on technical in the LP while also having top-class skating and performance quality.

He can even go up to 115 TES if he will be on and hit everything , but we will see if that happens :biggrin:

QuadThrow · Nov 9, 2015

andromache said:
It's really weird that no quads are allowed in the pairs SP. They really need to change that rule next year because it's a little absurd at this point. More pairs can do quads than ladies can do triple axels, but they changed the rules on that for the ladies. More pairs can do quads than men can do 2 quads in the SP, and yet the 2 quads are for men are allowed. It's just odd.

I agree.

At the moment pair´s SP is different in comparison to the other disciplines. Almost every top pair shows the same elements in its SP and there are only small differences in points. In conclusion it depends on the free skate where starts a battle of quads.

Mista Ekko · Nov 9, 2015

HanDomi said:
He can even go up to 115 TES if he will be on and hit everything , but we will see if that happens

I wish all the gods would sit together :ghug:

on Worlds FS night and make all of the Fab4 + Jin go completely clean.

Can you imagine? :yahoo:

Multiple quads: Progression/ jump contest?

supsu

andromache

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Violet Bliss

Interspectator

Bumdid

Interspectator

Mathman

Interspectator

Mathman

4everchan

semosk8tfan

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Mista Ekko

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Meoima

Match Penalty

alia jackson

HanDomi

QuadThrow

Mista Ekko

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