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Thread: Time Change in Short Program...Hmm!

  1. #16
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    Under CoP, the time deduction is not anywhere near as severe as that imposed under 6.0, although it IS mandatory and not discretionary.

    Taking 1 point off the total score for going overtime would normally not affect placement as much as taking .1 off from EACH technical and presentation mark, which could cause some of the skater's ordinals to slip as much as 3 places--and definitely place the skater lower. Since there are no ordinals under CoP, the effect is blunted.

  2. #17
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    The Kwan Rule

    Hmm..........

    There's The Zayak rule and the Katarina Witt Rule. They should just name this the "Kwan Rule".

  3. #18
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    Timing - USFSA v. ISU

    So, since the USFSA for senior Nationals next year is staying with the 6.0 system, will they also keep the current length of the short program?

    If they do this, do you think skaters will have to have two versions of their short programs - one for competitions under the ISU rules, and one for US Nationals?

  4. #19
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    Remember, the short program time limit is a maximum; there never was a minimum and still isn't.

    Skaters who will have to skate under the 2:40 maximum had best plan their programs to conclude within 2:40, unless they think they can afford the deduction in domestic competition.

    Internationally, they would be free to lengthen the program by 10 seconds, but they'd be better off just adding some extra "connecting" moves at the beginning or end so as not to mess with the timing of the shorter version.

    However, they won't be penalized internationally if they finish in less than 2:40 even when 2:50 is allowed, so they'd probably be better off just sticking to one version of the program that fits the less lenient rules. Adding 10 seconds more of connecting moves between elements is probably not going to make huge differences in placements this year.

  5. #20
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    What's interesting to me is that the ISU seems to be trying to make the Short Program more "artistic," even as the CoP pushes the Long Program to become more "technical." Is there really any difference any more between the two phases of the competition?

    Mathman

  6. #21
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    What's interesting to me is that the ISU seems to be trying to make the Short Program more "artistic," even as the CoP pushes the Long Program to become more "technical." Is there really any difference any more between the two phases of the competition?
    I have no idea what you're talking about.

    The SP has 8 required elements. Now skaters have 10 extra seconds to pack in all 8 elements if they need it. What are these suposid "more artistic" pushes you talk about?

    The LP is less structured technically, with less or less rigid requirements. Under COP, just like under 6.0, more difficult jumps and combinations are rewarded with higher scores. Where is this "more technical" push you talk of?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    Remember, the short program time limit is a maximum; there never was a minimum and still isn't.
    That's not the case under CoP, where there is a time, and the program may go up to 10 seconds under or over. This year, for example, a 2" 30' SP could be 2" 20'-2" 40', but it had to be at least 2" 20'.

  8. #23
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthes ghost
    I have no idea what you're talking about.

    The SP has 8 required elements. Now skaters have 10 extra seconds to pack in all 8 elements if they need it. What are these suposid "more artistic" pushes you talk about?

    The LP is less structured technically, with less or less rigid requirements. Under COP, just like under 6.0, more difficult jumps and combinations are rewarded with higher scores. Where is this "more technical" push you talk of?
    Well, according to the introductory post on this thread the reason for the change in the short program is "to allow more time for steps and transitions between the elements." To me, that means embellishing the artistic side of things.

    As for the LP, to me, the technical push comes from "rewarding more difficult jumps and combinations with higher scores."

    So I still think that the distinction between what the skater is supposed to accomplish in the two different types of program, long versus short, has pretty much gone by the boards.

    If your point was, don't blame the CoP for this, because it was headed that way anyway, I agree with that. But, to me, the CoP quantifies this trend in way that makes it seem more obvious.

    Mathman

  9. #24
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    We're just interpreting the words differently. It's only 10 seconds. I think that they meant that the sakters have a little more breathing room so that after you land your combo, you can then skate to the other end and do your axel, at a reasonable pace, not that they suddenly wanted you to throw an extra ina bower in there or something. It's still 8 elements, if skaters start trying to cram-in 10 seconds worth of extra MIFs, they probably will get 0 credit for them anyways.

    I also didn't know your timeframe. If you agree with the Protopopovs that the LP is now just 2 SPs skated back to back, then yes, that's been slowly brewing ever since Midori and the loss of figures. Tara winning in 98 put the final nail in the "artistic program" coffin. She actually did 3 SPs in Nagano, one to "Anastasia", one to "the Rainbow", and one to "Sounds of Summer Festival".

  10. #25
    Procrastinating b/c of Worlds
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    That's not the case under CoP, where there is a time, and the program may go up to 10 seconds under or over. This year, for example, a 2" 30' SP could be 2" 20'-2" 40', but it had to be at least 2" 20'.
    In all my CoP reading, I have never read this anywhere. Mostly, it says that the short program is "As it is today". If this is actually mentioned anywhere, I would be curious to see it.

    TV

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by thvudragon
    In all my CoP reading, I have never read this anywhere. Mostly, it says that the short program is "As it is today". If this is actually mentioned anywhere, I would be curious to see it.

    TV
    I don't have time to go through all of my printouts of the docs right now, but in one of the bigger docs -- unfortunately, there was no header configured for it, so I'm not sure which communication this is from -- under "F-Calculation 1. Basic principles of calculation" for singles and pairs and "G-Calculation 1. Basic principles of calculation" for dance, under deductions it says
    time violation -- 1.0 for every 5 seconds lacking or in excess
    .
    p. 113, q, first bullet point (singles/pairs)
    p. 130, l, first bullet point (dance)

    So while the exact times aren't broken out, they refer to "lacking" as well as "excess," or a deduction for not meeting the minimum time requirement.

  12. #27
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    No minimum in the SP

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    I don't have time to go through all of my printouts of the docs right now, but in one of the bigger docs -- unfortunately, there was no header configured for it, so I'm not sure which communication this is from -- under "F-Calculation 1. Basic principles of calculation" for singles and pairs and "G-Calculation 1. Basic principles of calculation" for dance, under deductions it says .
    p. 113, q, first bullet point (singles/pairs)
    p. 130, l, first bullet point (dance)

    So while the exact times aren't broken out, they refer to "lacking" as well as "excess," or a deduction for not meeting the minimum time requirement.
    THere are minimum and maximum time requirements for the free skate (for singles they are 3:50/4:10 sec. for the ladies and 4:20/4:40 sec. for the men); so if a free skate program is too short, then it would be "lacking". For the SP there is no minimum time limit -- but, as we all know after 2004 Worlds, there IS a time maximum (which has been expanded now to 2:50). For dance, I'm pretty sure there is a minimum for the free dance, but not really sure about the OD (of course, the CD is the same time/music for everyone).

  13. #28
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    (edited because someone already answered my question)

    I didn't know short programs didn't have a minimum time limit! I thought they did. I'm pretty sure ODs do.

    Anyways, the new rule doesn't mean people have to make their programs longer....
    Last edited by Isabelle; 06-21-2004 at 06:25 PM.

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