Time Change in Short Program...Hmm! | Golden Skate

Time Change in Short Program...Hmm!

lil_icesk8er915

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Recently at the 2004 ISU Governing Council this was passed:

The short program in singles and pairs skating will last for a maximum of 2 minutes and 50 seconds (previously the limit was 2 minutes and 40 seconds) in order to allow more time for steps and transitions between the elements.

Hmm...I wonder why they decided to change that one! ;)
 

astimegoesby

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Actually, I remember a few pro skaters suggested making the SP longer when they started competing in pro-ams a few years ago. They found it hard to be restricted to the length after not having to skate an SP and compete under ISU rules for so many years.

I believe the SP was even shorter back when it was first implemented (something like 2:10 or 2:20). The length was changed to 2:40 after the 1987/88 season, IIRC.

Even though it's probably too late for pro skaters to benefit from this rule (there don't seem to be too many pro-ams around anymore), I think it's great the eligible skaters get a little more "breathing room" during the SP, so to speak! :)
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
The Protopopovs are also very much for increasing time for both programs. They make a pretty powerful argument about jam-packed programs being too hard on skaters, forcing many to finish off in what they call a "semi-consious state".
 

Lynn226

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Ptichka said:
The Protopopovs are also very much for increasing time for both programs. They make a pretty powerful argument about jam-packed programs being too hard on skaters, forcing many to finish off in what they call a "semi-consious state".

The question is: How will the skaters use that extra time? Will it simply give them more breathing room or will they feel compelled to add more tricks (jumps, lifts, etc.)? If one of them uses it to add extra elements, then the others will have to in order to compete. This would not apply to the sp since there are only 8 elements, but I can see this happening in the long if more can be added within the limits provided by the rules.
 

thvudragon

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Ptichka said:
The Protopopovs are also very much for increasing time for both programs. They make a pretty powerful argument about jam-packed programs being too hard on skaters, forcing many to finish off in what they call a "semi-consious state".
Bah the Protopopovs. They also think there should be no required elements, no restrictions. They want to turn the sport into something unjudgable and completely subjective. Basically, they want skating to move backwards. I don't take much of what they say with a grain of salt.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I don't think 10 seconds is going to break anyone's back. I foresee a lot of stopping and posing with the extra time.

JOe
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It would be nice to see more moves extended........maybe the ten extra seconds would help in that respect....42
 

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Lynn: there are 8 required elements in the SP. No more, no less. Seeing as Surya is pro now, I doubt that anyone would be foolish enough to throw in an extra jump or spin. Not only will it not count, but they might even be penalized for it. Again, the SP has 8 elements, no more no less. Like the anouncement said, the extra 10 seconds to do allow for more time bewteen tricks, if the skater so requires.

Pitchka and Thvdragon: I don't remember the Protopopovs saying any such thing. What I remember is them saying that the pairs LP had just become the pairs SP times 2. Everyone was so hyper to get in extra tricks and rack up the points, that they were missing out on creating a program. ie: if you do one throw jump, we know you can do one, do you really have to do two? For example: T&M's painfully boring WSS LP ranked above I&Z's more dynamic LP because T&M had 2 sets of sbs triples. :eek:

Edited to add: well that is the spirit of the law as I understood it from that lengthy missive. Perhaps they did literally say make the SP longer at some point, but I think that their overall point was that skating shouldn't be a shopping list. In some ways I'm inclined to agree with them, as I'd watch Toller and them over Plushy and T&M any day of the week, but I've also come to accept that COP emphasises the athletic aspect of the sport more and at least tries to narrow the gap on subjectivity. It should be called the Oksana rule rather than COP. :laugh:
 
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thvudragon

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
berthes ghost said:
Pitchka and Thvdragon: I don't remember the Protopopovs saying any such thing. What I remember is them saying that the pairs LP had just become the pairs SP times 2. Everyone was so hyper to get in extra tricks and rack up the points, that they were missing out on creating a program. ie: if you do one throw jump, we know you can do one, do you really have to do two? For example: T&M's painfully boring WSS LP ranked above I&Z's more dynamic LP because T&M had 2 sets of sbs triples. :eek:
It was in their borefest of a letter that was posted on the WSF site? Bah, I don't remember. I remember reading it at like 12am. The only thing keeping me awake were all the ridiculous ideas.

TV
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
thvudragon said:
It was in their borefest of a letter that was posted on the WSF site? Bah, I don't remember. I remember reading it at like 12am. The only thing keeping me awake were all the ridiculous ideas.
Yup, it was there.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think the change should be retroactive and they should give Michelle the 2004 World Championship. She was ahead of her time! :laugh:
 

Kasey

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Hopefully the time will be used to hold positions a little more...can't think of much else that can come out of 10 more seconds...

Kasey
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
LOL, great idea, Mathman! But, as Joe said, 10 seconds really isn't that much. Hopefully, it might give the skaters just a tad more "breathing" room.
 

BittyBug

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
PML at everyone who thinks that the changes is related to Kwan. :rolleye: What's next, then - a rule eliminating triple triples for ladies? ;)
 

euterpe

Medalist
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Under CoP, the time deduction is not anywhere near as severe as that imposed under 6.0, although it IS mandatory and not discretionary.

Taking 1 point off the total score for going overtime would normally not affect placement as much as taking .1 off from EACH technical and presentation mark, which could cause some of the skater's ordinals to slip as much as 3 places--and definitely place the skater lower. Since there are no ordinals under CoP, the effect is blunted.
 

Eeyora

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
The Kwan Rule

Hmm..........

There's The Zayak rule and the Katarina Witt Rule. They should just name this the "Kwan Rule". :laugh:
 

RoaringMice

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
Timing - USFSA v. ISU

So, since the USFSA for senior Nationals next year is staying with the 6.0 system, will they also keep the current length of the short program?

If they do this, do you think skaters will have to have two versions of their short programs - one for competitions under the ISU rules, and one for US Nationals?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Remember, the short program time limit is a maximum; there never was a minimum and still isn't.

Skaters who will have to skate under the 2:40 maximum had best plan their programs to conclude within 2:40, unless they think they can afford the deduction in domestic competition.

Internationally, they would be free to lengthen the program by 10 seconds, but they'd be better off just adding some extra "connecting" moves at the beginning or end so as not to mess with the timing of the shorter version.

However, they won't be penalized internationally if they finish in less than 2:40 even when 2:50 is allowed, so they'd probably be better off just sticking to one version of the program that fits the less lenient rules. Adding 10 seconds more of connecting moves between elements is probably not going to make huge differences in placements this year.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What's interesting to me is that the ISU seems to be trying to make the Short Program more "artistic," even as the CoP pushes the Long Program to become more "technical." Is there really any difference any more between the two phases of the competition?

Mathman
 
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