Time Change in Short Program...Hmm!

Mathman said:

What's interesting to me is that the ISU seems to be trying to make the Short Program more "artistic," even as the CoP pushes the Long Program to become more "technical." Is there really any difference any more between the two phases of the competition?

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I have no idea what you're talking about.

The SP has 8 required elements. Now skaters have 10 extra seconds to pack in all 8 elements if they need it. What are these suposid "more artistic" pushes you talk about?

The LP is less structured technically, with less or less rigid requirements. Under COP, just like under 6.0, more difficult jumps and combinations are rewarded with higher scores. Where is this "more technical" push you talk of?

gkelly said:

Remember, the short program time limit is a maximum; there never was a minimum and still isn't.

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That's not the case under CoP, where there is a time, and the program may go up to 10 seconds under or over. This year, for example, a 2" 30' SP could be 2" 20'-2" 40', but it had to be at least 2" 20'.

berthes ghost said:

I have no idea what you're talking about.

The SP has 8 required elements. Now skaters have 10 extra seconds to pack in all 8 elements if they need it. What are these suposid "more artistic" pushes you talk about?

The LP is less structured technically, with less or less rigid requirements. Under COP, just like under 6.0, more difficult jumps and combinations are rewarded with higher scores. Where is this "more technical" push you talk of?

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Well, according to the introductory post on this thread the reason for the change in the short program is "to allow more time for steps and transitions between the elements." To me, that means embellishing the artistic side of things.

As for the LP, to me, the technical push comes from "rewarding more difficult jumps and combinations with higher scores."

So I still think that the distinction between what the skater is supposed to accomplish in the two different types of program, long versus short, has pretty much gone by the boards.

If your point was, don't blame the CoP for this, because it was headed that way anyway, I agree with that. But, to me, the CoP quantifies this trend in way that makes it seem more obvious.

Mathman

We're just interpreting the words differently. It's only 10 seconds. I think that they meant that the sakters have a little more breathing room so that after you land your combo, you can then skate to the other end and do your axel, at a reasonable pace, not that they suddenly wanted you to throw an extra ina bower in there or something. It's still 8 elements, if skaters start trying to cram-in 10 seconds worth of extra MIFs, they probably will get 0 credit for them anyways.

I also didn't know your timeframe. If you agree with the Protopopovs that the LP is now just 2 SPs skated back to back, then yes, that's been slowly brewing ever since Midori and the loss of figures. Tara winning in 98 put the final nail in the "artistic program" coffin. She actually did 3 SPs in Nagano, one to "Anastasia", one to "the Rainbow", and one to "Sounds of Summer Festival".

hockeyfan228 said:

That's not the case under CoP, where there is a time, and the program may go up to 10 seconds under or over. This year, for example, a 2" 30' SP could be 2" 20'-2" 40', but it had to be at least 2" 20'.

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In all my CoP reading, I have never read this anywhere. Mostly, it says that the short program is "As it is today". If this is actually mentioned anywhere, I would be curious to see it.

TV

thvudragon said:

In all my CoP reading, I have never read this anywhere. Mostly, it says that the short program is "As it is today". If this is actually mentioned anywhere, I would be curious to see it.

TV

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I don't have time to go through all of my printouts of the docs right now, but in one of the bigger docs -- unfortunately, there was no header configured for it, so I'm not sure which communication this is from -- under "F-Calculation 1. Basic principles of calculation" for singles and pairs and "G-Calculation 1. Basic principles of calculation" for dance, under deductions it says

time violation -- 1.0 for every 5 seconds lacking or in excess

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.
p. 113, q, first bullet point (singles/pairs)
p. 130, l, first bullet point (dance)

So while the exact times aren't broken out, they refer to "lacking" as well as "excess," or a deduction for not meeting the minimum time requirement.

No minimum in the SP

hockeyfan228 said:

I don't have time to go through all of my printouts of the docs right now, but in one of the bigger docs -- unfortunately, there was no header configured for it, so I'm not sure which communication this is from -- under "F-Calculation 1. Basic principles of calculation" for singles and pairs and "G-Calculation 1. Basic principles of calculation" for dance, under deductions it says .
p. 113, q, first bullet point (singles/pairs)
p. 130, l, first bullet point (dance)

So while the exact times aren't broken out, they refer to "lacking" as well as "excess," or a deduction for not meeting the minimum time requirement.

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THere are minimum and maximum time requirements for the free skate (for singles they are 3:50/4:10 sec. for the ladies and 4:20/4:40 sec. for the men); so if a free skate program is too short, then it would be "lacking". For the SP there is no minimum time limit -- but, as we all know after 2004 Worlds, there IS a time maximum (which has been expanded now to 2:50). For dance, I'm pretty sure there is a minimum for the free dance, but not really sure about the OD (of course, the CD is the same time/music for everyone).

(edited because someone already answered my question)

I didn't know short programs didn't have a minimum time limit! I thought they did. I'm pretty sure ODs do.

Anyways, the new rule doesn't mean people have to make their programs longer....