Kara's original post was insulting, and dismissive of anyone, of any age, who didn't share her world view. Her second post not only went on to say that my opinion was "narrow", but was personally insulting to me.
BTW, age has nothing to do with maturity. What made Kara's original post immature was her intolerance of the views of others. What made her second post even more immature was the name-calling. Which you enjoyed.
I am going to be a mature person and stop posting in this thread.
What are you going to do chuckm?
Indeed, Moore's films are controversial and raise social consciousness. But is not that part of the United States freedom of speech? The freedom to express ideas - maybe not popular with everyone - but nonetheless, that's what free speech is about. Would you rather live in a controlled society? Here in Canada, pundits are always poking fun at our leaders - keeps them "on their toes!"
1. I will reserve the right to comment on the first part of this question until I have seen it. However, there was an ulterior motive other than just discrediting the war and Moore admits it openly. It was to get Bush voted out of office.Originally Posted by Joesitz
2. Frankly I think Nancy Pelosi was correct: "The emperor has no clothes." That is to say, Bush is incompetent. He sees the Iraq war as some sort of cultural/religious crusade. I don't think he lied so much as he has no real idea what's going on. The particulars were handled by Cheney, Rummy, Ashcroft et al. and their neocon cabal. Now no one is accountable for OUR human rights violations. The next time there is a U.N. conference on human rights, the U.S. will be an international laughingstock. Once the war was ostensibly won (as we knew it would be), its clear this administration had no idea what to do once (as Colin Powell said) we "owned the country." Where, I ask, is the Israel-Palestine conflict on this administration's radar? Do they understand that until this steps are made to solve this admittedly daunting problem, there can never be peace in the region!? What happened to Afghanistan? THAT's where people were trained to fly planes into our buildings. Did this administration really believe that toppling Saddam would solve everything? They are either completely shortsighted or (oil) opportunists of the worst kind.
Last edited by Ogre Mage; 06-27-2004 at 03:39 AM.
Love the film or Hate it. it"s No. 1 at the Box Office this Weekend.
Joe
Having seen the film, it is worth seeing. Is it manipulative, and typical Moore? Yes, but many things surprised me and enraged me that weren't his usual shtick. The entire film is worth seeing just for Lila Lipscomb, the soldier's mother. I defy ANYONE on either side politically to see this movie and not feel for this woman enough to shed a tear or two.
And as someone who has to drive through a military base everyday to get to work and must stop at checkpoints manned by soldiers, I can support his point about minorities and the disadvantaged disporportionately being the ones who volunteer and put their lives on the line each day in this war. And that, to me, is the most disturbing point he makes.
I am all for free speech. I appreciate differing views. What I do not like is people portraying something as a "documentary" and/or "truth" when it is in fact entertainment and/or manipulation. Moore has recently said that this film is his view of the matter, not a documentary. However, the US media continues to insist that it is a documentary. It is not - it is an op-ed piece. Unfortunately, there are many, many, many people out there in the US who won't take the time to look at both sides of an issue - won't take the time to research - won't take the time to think for themselves. They believe what they see on the tv and the big screen as being the absolute truth.
As I said earlier, I'm not aiming my statements at anyone here -- you all seem to be well-read folks (which is normal at figure skating sites, I have found - we sure are a good bunch of folks :D . I'm quite involved in political discussions at skatingforums, but haven't jumped in here until recently). What I worry about is people (especially the media) representing opinion as fact - and that is all too common in this divisive political climate.
It's truly ironic (and perversely funny in a way) that the Bush camp and supporters of Bush would have these objections to the Moore film.....
"Distorting the truth", "manipulation of facts" and not "taking the time for research" are exactly what many of us were complaining that our government did to us (and which has since been proven) in the haste to a pre-emptive and ill-conceived war of choice.
By the way, it's the same US media that allowed Bush that drumbeat of cliches and "you're either with or agin us" cowboy rhetoric, thereby giving credence to the lies and manipulations that were used to justify a wrong-minded aggressive action that we'll have to live with for years to come.
Michael Moore's movie will go to video and fade quietly away in months. The loss of thousands of lives, the trashing of the economy, the huge deficits - they'll be around a whole lot longer!
If it helps to move any undecided voters away from Bush support, then I say "Good job, Michael Moore!!"
So look at it like a political ad. It simplifies or distorts the truth to make a point. Bush's ads are genius at this. That one where they had Kerry voting "NO" four times to bills about military spending? That was ONE bill, and it was a spending bill that had a whole bunch of other stuff in it besides the military stuff.
That's just one example. At least people have to pay to see the movie. Every moron watching his or her television will see that Bush ad and go, "Holy Crap! Kerry didn't want to buy tanks for the military!" Thankfully, as you pointed out, figure skating fans are too bright to fall for that crap. Right?
Laura
Well since Bush's administration seems to be very fond of quoting the Bible and using the "will of God" to justify their policies, I'll put my opinion of MM op-ed piece as it relates to them in Biblical terms. The admin has spent the past three years distorting, conflating and twisting the facts to manipulate public opinion.
"Bretheren, as ye sow, surely shall you reap." :D
or in other words.....
Karma's a b*tch eh?
What Michael Moore has portrayed in his movie is NO more manipulative and "distorting" than what the Bush administration handed the American people as proof positive that this country needed to go to war with Iraq.
Weapons of mass destruction? None found.
Absolute link between Osama Bin Laden's terrorists and Saddam Hussein? No proven link exists.
Proof that Iraq had a direct role in the 9/11 attacks? No role, proven though research of the 9/11 Commission.
At least there were no lives lost in the production of "Farenheit 9/11." The same can't be said for the war in Iraq. Just ask Mrs. Lipscomb.
I would like to see the movie, but the closest theater carrying it here is 30 miles away. However, since it is making pots of money, I expect it to come closer soon.
On 9/11, I was in doctors' waiting rooms (yes, plural) at Yale New Haven Hospital, and watched the whole thing live. Bush sat and sat reading about the Pet Goat. I already knew that both planes had hit, and they were talking about maybe as many as 10 planes in the air, and Bush sat and read more about the goat. While I can't tell you what was whispered to Bush, I certainly knew about both towers. I was mentally screaming at the screen, for heaven's sake do something, get the Air Force to shoot down those 8 more planes, if there are 8. But he sat and read more about the goat.
During those early days, it was Rudi Giuliani that pulled the country together.
If that is what Moore portrayed in the film, it is exactly how I remember it.
Bush came back into more positive appearance when he appeared with the firefighters at Ground Zero. But that was , what 3? days later.
On the other hand, the story that I have heard is included in Moore's film is that Bush's limo had eggs thrown at it and that he had to sneak in the back door to the inauguration. I do not remember hearing this at the time, and wonder whether anyone knows whether it is true?
I expect Moore's film to be no more and no less a product of his point of view than many a newscast.
Wow, is this what has happen to the US while I was away?
1. Kara made a broad overview that she didn't understand why a certain large group thought the way they did in today's context. She didn't say it was wrong or bad, just that she didn't understand it. No one was personally attacked or singled out for derision, and ceratily no other poster of our little group was attacked or insulted.
2. chuckm vicously attacked Kara personally as a response. Why he so strongly personalized her broad comment is not known, but his replies were horrible. I'm shocked at thier big-broterishness. He knows her age, her employment record, her nationality, etc...All very personal information, that I assume she gave out somewhere, but collected and kept in chuckm's mind and posted in a status report for all to read in a personal slander campagne. It just sickens me.
Are none of us safe here? Do I now have to watch every word I say for fear that another poster will respond with "I know where you live"? This is seriously uncool.
Back OT:
I'll probably see the movie as I saw the other two and it is what everyone is talking about. I found the other two interesting and informative, but personally I just don't like Moore's style. He bugs me. I'll probably feel the same about his one. Sorta like watching Irina skate: I can marvel at the speed, wow at the height of the jumps etc... but overall the package will leave me cold.
I doubt that this movie will change many people's minds, but I don't get the whole concept of swing voters anyway (God, I wonder how many people will bash my personal life for that broad comment?
By clicking that little red bordered triangle in the lower left hand corner of the thread will get any poster to have the MODs look at a perceived personal bash.
Joe
Here's a review of Moore's film that looks at it element by element:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/?GT1=3584
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