Joesitz: "The scenes of Haliburton and Carlyle are harrowing as is the Bush family entertaining the Sauds and yes, the bin Ladens. When we were all stopped from flying on the 11th and 12th Bush got the Saud's and bin Laden's out of the country safely."
Just one of the false "factoids" in Moore's movie.
Richard Clarke, the one who wrote the anti-Bush book, remember him?
HE has confirmed that it was HE who got the Bin Ladens out of the US after 9/11. Bush had nothing to do with it.
Wow, I can't believe that a documentary grossed over $20 million at the box office (in on weekend)! It certainly seems like all of the controversy helped to boost business....ala "Passion of the Christ". I haven't decided whether I'll see this film or not. I was very upset with "Bowling for Columbine". Moore was making valid points in an interesting way....and then BAM.....he ruins the entire message in the end. I will never forget how he marched those poor Columbine victims to the K-Mart Headquarters....it was truly sickening. They looked like frightened deer caught in the headlights. I could almost understand what he was trying to do, but I felt he took advantage of two young people that had been through enough. Was K-Mart directly responsible? Did they deserve to be targeted in such a way? Maybe yes and maybe no, but it just seemed to me he chose to confront K-Mart (instead of say...the company that actually made the bullets!) because it was in a weakened state and was a name that everyone watching his film would recognize. You don't effectively deal with a problem if you only confront the minor/less important players. So, if Moore was actually trying to set the wheels of change in motion...he didn't. If he was trying to get a message across, he did: He isn't above shamelessly manipulating his audience, just as he isn't above manipulating people (the two injured Columbine students) with real messages to bring his films more dramatic flair. Okay....maybe I will go see this. I did really enjoy the first 3/4 of "Bowling for Columbine" and felt Moore had something to say. Hopefully, "Farenheit 9/11" won't be completely ruined by self-serving BS in the last quarter.
bugs are smarter than we are
And who do you think Clarke was working for at the time? He was a member of Bush' s cabinet. do you think he would have been able to do this without Bush' s approval?
Originally Posted by chuckm
Right, Chuckm, Clarke decided to fly the Bin Laden's out of the county, of his own accord. His idea, no-one elses.
I have some swampland in Florida that's available for development. Are you interested?
At least Clarke had the fortitude and decency to admit his role in the Bin Laden's leaving. Which is more than you can say of a certain American pseudo-dynasty.
Why weren't the bin Laden's detained? You can bet anyone who looked swarthy at an airport on those dates was detained. The bin Laden's could have told lots about Osma if they wee detained.. Apparently, all they had to say was that he was the black sheep of the family.and that they had been to Afghanistan to attend one of Osama's son's wedding.
Again, this movie is not about the Republican Party. It is about the greed for oil and getting oil at any cost - even 8,000 American lives and 20000 American maimed. With so many despots in the world, why should we pick Iraq for liberation? Koea has weapons of mass destruction but it doesn't have oil.
I saw this movie today, I found it to be thought provoking and well done. Perhaps a bit too much conspiracy mongering, and there were a few points that didn't really go anywhere. Not a perfect movie, but there were some things that I really liked.
1) The section about the use of fear to supress dissent, relating to media coverage, statements by the administration and general absurdity regarding the response of the public. Haphazard and illogical in many ways, such as the "breast milk" incident.
2) The Lila Lipscomb interviews were very moving.
3) President Bush addressing his "base". That was NOT out of context.
In sum, I think this movie may bring out the youth vote and that's probably a good thing for those who would like to see Bush become a one term President.
Keeper of Michelle's Nose
I was recently listening to a speech Moore gave somewhere, mostly about his book and how it was stopped after 9/11 but then released due to pressure from Librarians. Anyway, he explains his version of how his "career" got started.
Originally Posted by Joesitz
He was in High School and on one of those state student government trips. Standing by the vending machine to buy potaoto chips, he read a flyer for an essay competition on Lincoln sponsored by the Elks Club. In typical MM fashion, he dicided to peek out of his slacker personality for a moment and write an essay condeming the whole idea. The Elks only let caucasians in to thier club, why were they sponsoring an essay on the virtues of the great emancipator? He claims to have done it just to be a jerk and piss people off. The essay won and caused a huge controversy, making the national news. He declined offers to go on national TV becasue he was just a kid and sared about the rukus he had caused. It became such a big issue that the Elks club were later forced to change their membership policy.
I fail to see what's wrong with getting Bin Ladens out of the country. He father is a businessman; I am certain he would personally hang Osama if he could. Having that family in the US at that point would have just been too much of a liability in terms of protecting them, people protesting about them, etc.
Originally Posted by Joesitz
Oh, and I find the "Bush had nothing to do with it" comment a little odd as well -- it was his administration, and Clarke was working for him.
You're wrong about 'anyone appearing swarthy' being detained after 9/11.
Airlines can't do that because of immediate screaming on the part of the ACLU and other legal groups about 'racial profiling'. They do random checks that include nuns, kids under 12, and even nursing mothers.
My young blonde daughter who traveled frequently on business after 9/11 was nearly always singled out and searched. A senator with a metal pin in his hip was detained and subjected to a body search. A woman carrying a bottle containing breast milk was required to drink it.
"Bush had nothing to do with it" was a response to the allegation in the movie that Bush personally (and the entire movie is aimed at Bush personally) got the bin Ladens out of the country when no one else was able to travel. Clarke made the arrangements, and the Bin Ladens left AFTER travel restrictions were eased.
Last edited by euterpe; 06-29-2004 at 10:30 AM.
You're right that there may have been a rhetorical exaggeration but the FACT is that over 800 middle eastern men were detained for months on NO charges or flimsy immigration issues. Some have alleged abuse. Meanwhile, the family of the awful man who did this terrible thing were chartered out of the country privately?
Originally Posted by euterpe
I mean, I don't think open ended detention is a good thing, as the Supreme Court has recently agreed, but I agree with the writer in Moore's movie that stated that the Bin Laden family should have been at least briefly interviewed.
Wicked Yankee Girl
In fact, if the bin Laden family is embarrassed by their relative, all the more reason to interview them. They may not know what they know.
Trust me, when there's a regular murder, the family of the suspects and of the victims as well, are very thoroughly interviewed, and interviewed and interviewed.
I see no reason that the bin Ladens should not have been treated the same as the rest of us, especially when 3000 people were murdered.
I do not think they should have been detained indefinitely however.
eurterp - Yup, that's what it is in principal but that's not the way it is practice. While standing in line, I was taken off for special inspection, the swarthy guys in front and back of me were too. I was the token white man. My search went very quickly; theirs took time.
Originally Posted by euterpe
Everyone should see Alex Jones´ films. They speak the real truth with out all that publicity. Please look into them. INFOWARS.COM.
Just a concerned American. :(