What is the max base value of a ladies FS?

Dan said:

I think part of the discussion here is that we all understand the Zayak rule differently. What made me create this thread was my new understanding of the Zayak. I thought like some of you did that only 11 jumps were possible in the seven allowed jumping passes. Gkelly posted with this understanding. 4 jumps without combo, 2 two-jump combos and 1 three jump combo. This is not the case. This is just what most skaters are doing right now. Some other rule besides Zayak limits you to seven jumping passes but it doesn't specify limitation in those jumping passes like this. However, the Zayak rule states that you can only attempt a triple twice in one program to receive their full value. In the FS, you can do as many doubles as you want. I think the short is different starting this year regarding doubles. Let's stick with the FS. You can attempt the same triple jump twice and AT LEAST one of those has to be in combination. This doesn't prevent you from doing both attempts in combination. The key word here is AT LEAST. Also, you could do it a third time if you wanted but if you do you receive 70% of the base value. So I am sticking with my previous max base value of 77.2 based on these 7 jumping passes. You could increase them slightly by adding 2Lo to the end of each pass bumping up the total base value by (7 * 1.3) = 9.1 but now we have gone from unlikely passes to highly unlikely passes.
3lz+3t = 6 + 4.3 = 10.3
3lz+3t = 6 + 4.3 = 10.3
3f+3lo = 5.3 + 5.1 = 10.4
3f+3lo = 5.3 + 5.1 = 10.4
3S+2lo = 4.4 + 1.8 = 6.2
3S+2lo = 4.4 + 1.8 = 6.2
2a+2lo = 3.3 + 1.8 = 5.1

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No, gkelly is right. The program you suggest Zayaks all over the place. One of the Zayak rules is that only 2 different triple jumps can be repeated, irrespective of other considerations. If you repeat the 3Lz and the 3F then you cannot repeat any other triple jumps at all, whether in combination or not.

In the layout above you repeated the 3Lz and the triple toe in the first two passes. In pass number 4, you cannot repeat a 3F OR a 3Lo, never mind both.

rollerblade said:

With 11 jumps total, the just list becomes:
3Z / 3Z / 3F / 3F / 3L / 3S / 3T / 2A / 2A / 2Z / 2F ---> a BV of 47.0 (ignore 10% bonus)

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This is where I think many of us disagree. What prompted me to post this thread was my new understanding of the Zayak rule. It states that triples (not doubles) may only be attempted twice and that AT LEAST one of those attempts must be in combination. Nothing prevents both attempts from being in combination. Also, nothing limits the total number of jumps in a program. Ladies programs today are limited to 12 elements - 7 jumping passes, 3 spins and 2 sequences. I couldn't find anything that said that the 7 jumping passes were limited to 11 jumps. That's what the ladies are doing today but I don't think that's because of the rules. I think that is a practical matter of being able to do the jumps and get the GOE. Before I wrote this post, I thought like you do that 11 jumps in total were permitted. I no longer think that is the case. Perhaps we need yet another thread about the Zayak rule. Every time I think I have her down, she jumps back up to confuse me, pun intended.

You can mix it up a lot of different ways, but I think the only real choice is in the three jump combination. Strange as it seems, a three jump combination ending in +2Lo+2Lo (or even in +2T+2T) scores higher overall that one ending in +half-loop +3 something (by one point).

Skatingwise, this is too bad because the half-loop thing is way cool if done right (i.e., so that it doesn't look like a mistake with an awkward recovery), while The _2Lo + 2LO is sort of blah and the skater usually comes to a complete stop.

Dan: the maximum number of combinations that are allowed in the freeskate is THREE. The rules do not allow seven combinations. (Also, you're no longer allowed to do three or more double loops.)

See Rule 612 in the ISU rulebook here: under "Jump Combinations and Jump Sequences" it states

There may be up to three jump combinations or jump sequences in the Free Program. One jump combination could consist of up to three (3) jumps, and the other two up to two (2) jumps.

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You'll find the repetitions rule immediately following.
Or see the senior ladies summary here toward the end of 2015-16 Singles Free Skate Program Elements for No Test - Senior link

For spins, there are three slots to fill: combination spin, spin in one position, and flying spin. The flying spin will inevitably be either in one position or a combination, but the same spin can't fill two different slots.

Each spin must have a different code. FCCoSp and CCoSp are different codes, so it is legal to include both; they have the same base value. If you want maximum base value on spins, then you need to include a flying camel, flying layback, change-foot camel, or change-foot layback at level 4 as your spin in one position. The camels will be more possible.

To Caelum: Nice discussion and complexity and integer programming :eeking above.

Here is how the P=NP problem is often explained. Consider an equation like 2x+3 = 13. Which is harder, figuring out the answer for yourself or looking in the back of the book and then checking the answer that you see there?

Strangely, both of these challenges are exactly the same in difficulty. If I tell you that the answer is 5, but you have to check, then you must do two arithmetic problems. First you must multiply 2x5. Then you must add 3 to the answer and see if you get 13..

If you figure it out for yourself, you still have to do two arithmetic problems. To find x, you must first subtract 3 from 13. Then you must divide the answer by 2.

The P=NP conjecture states that every math problem is like that. If you can check the answer in a few steps, then it is equally easy to solve it from scratch in a few steps.

If you can prove that this is true, or if you can find a counterexample to show that it is false, you will win a million dollar prize.

Dan said:

This is where I think many of us disagree. What prompted me to post this thread was my new understanding of the Zayak rule. It states that triples (not doubles) may only be attempted twice and that AT LEAST one of those attempts must be in combination. Nothing prevents both attempts from being in combination. Also, nothing limits the total number of jumps in a program. Ladies programs today are limited to 12 elements - 7 jumping passes, 3 spins and 2 sequences. I couldn't find anything that said that the 7 jumping passes were limited to 11 jumps. That's what the ladies are doing today but I don't think that's because of the rules. I think that is a practical matter of being able to do the jumps and get the GOE. Before I wrote this post, I thought like you do that 11 jumps in total were permitted. I no longer think that is the case. Perhaps we need yet another thread about the Zayak rule. Every time I think I have her down, she jumps back up to confuse me, pun intended.

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From ISU 520: Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be executed twice. If at least one of these executions is in a jump combination or a jump sequence, both executions are evaluated in a regular way. If both
executions are as solo jumps, the second of these solo jumps will receive 70% of its original Base Value.

Based on your layout, out of all the jumps (3lz, 3f, 3loop, 3toe), you can only choose two of them that could be repeated twice (one or both has to be in each combination). I hope my explanation isn't confusing :agree:

For all rules (from pg 95 for singles): http://static.isu.org/media/166717/...and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_14-09-16.pdf

Edit: Beaten to the punch!

Here's the Technical Panel Handbook for 2015/2016. Page 21 is where they start listing the rules for Jump Elements. Page 22 has the rules about Combinations.

BTW, I wouldn't call the rules that limit the total number of jumps or the number of combinations "Zayak rule."

The Zayak rule was specifically introduced to limit the number of different triple jumps that could be repeated and requiring repeats to be in combination. Over the years there have since been revisions to clarify that each such jump could only be attempted twice, to include quadruple and more recently double jumps in the limits, and to adjust the penalties for violations under IJS. So any part of the current rules that deals with repeating jumps could be considered part of the latest version of the Zayak rule.

But rules about how many total jumps or jump combinations are allowed, and other jump requirements, are something else. To avoid confusion, I'd recommend referring to these rules as "the well-balanced program rules" or "the freeskate jump rules."

(Short programs have a whole different set of rules, simpler because there are fewer jump elements and stricter requirements.)

gkelly said:

BTW, I wouldn't call the rules that limit the total number of jumps or the number of combinations "Zayak rule."

The Zayak rule was specifically introduced to limit the number of different triple jumps that could be repeated and requiring repeats to be in combination. Over the years there have since been revisions to clarify that each such jump could only be attempted twice,…

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Is this correct? I thought it was the other way around. That Elaine Zakak did a whole bunch of triple toes, so they first decreed that you could only do your favorite jump two times, and then after that you had to do something different. (?)

rollerblade said:

Ya sorry, I just saw I could have used a stonger combo, and fixed. It only added half a point, but still.... points are points!

Elena did two solo 2A in Europeans. It's why I had them there.

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gkelly said:

Dan: the maximum number of combinations that are allowed in the freeskate is THREE. The rules do not allow seven combinations. (Also, you're no longer allowed to do three or more double loops.)

See Rule 612 in the ISU rulebook here: under "Jump Combinations and Jump Sequences" it states

You'll find the repetitions rule immediately following.
Or see the senior ladies summary here toward the end of 2015-16 Singles Free Skate Program Elements for No Test - Senior link

For spins, there are three slots to fill: combination spin, spin in one position, and flying spin. The flying spin will inevitably be either in one position or a combination, but the same spin can't fill two different slots.

Each spin must have a different code. FCCoSp and CCoSp are different codes, so it is legal to include both; they have the same base value. If you want maximum base value on spins, then you need to include a flying camel, flying layback, change-foot camel, or change-foot layback at level 4 as your spin in one position. The camels will be more possible.

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You are and remain my rulebook god gkelly. Thank you, thank you for finding this and taking the time to clarify for me (again). I looked for a limit on combinations but couldn't find any. So I stand corrected. Thank you so much. Can the two sequences be any sequences or must one be step and one be choreographic?

Mathman said:

No, gkelly is right. The program you suggest Zayaks all over the place. One of the Zayak rules is that only 2 different triple jumps can be repeated, irrespective of other considerations. If you repeat the 3Lz and the 3F then you cannot repeat any other triple jumps at all, whether in combination or not.

In the layout above you repeated the 3Lz and the triple toe in the first two passes. In pass number 4, you cannot repeat a 3F OR a 3Lo, never mind both.

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Now this is a new twist (pun intended) on the Zayak rule. I had never read anything in only repeating two triples until today. After some research I found something tha the two repeated triples limit was added in 2014. Is this correct? Here is the excerpt from section 612 if the ISU technical rules found here http://static.isu.org/media/166717/...and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_14-09-16.pdf about the limits on combinations and the limits on repeating triples. Why must this be so hard? Why do they call it free when there doesn't seem much free about it?

Jump Combinations and Jump Sequences A jump combination may consist of the same or another single, double, triple or quadruple jump. There may be up to three jump combinations or jump sequences in the Free Program. One jump combination could consist of up to three (3) jumps, the other two up to two (2) jumps.

Repetitions: Any double jump (including double Axel) cannot be included more than twice in total in a Single’s Free Program (as a Solo Jump or a part of Combination / Sequence). Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be executed twice. If at least one of these executions is in a jump combination or a jump sequence, both executions are evaluated in a regular way. If both executions are as solo jumps, the second of these solo jumps will receive 70% of its original Base Value. Triple and quadruple jumps with the same name will be considered as two different jumps. No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice. If a third repeated jump is executed in a combination or sequence, the entire combination or sequence will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered (but this element will occupy a jump element box if one is empty).

Thank you Bumdid for educating me.

Dan said:

Now this is a new twist (pun intended) on the Zayak rule. I had never read anything in only repeating two triples until today. After some research I found something tha the two repeated triples limit was added in 2014. Is this correct?…

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No, I am pretty sure that the rule about repeating only two triples goes back to well before the present judging system came into being in 2002.

These rules are published every year. The part that is new is underlined in the document that you linked to. What was new in 2014 was the discussion of double jumps, the 70% thing, etc.

Why do they call it free when there doesn't seem much free about it?

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Back in the day, the two parts of a skating competition were "Compulsory Figures" and "Free Skating." (I guess free skating was freer than tracing figure eights on the ice. )

When Figures were diminished in relative weight (because they were too boring for a television audience to watch), the ISU came up with the "technical program." Some time after figures were done away with altogether, they started using the language "short program" and "long program." Nowadays, the main distinction between the short and the long programs is that the short program is shorter and the long program is longer.

You are in very good company if you object that the rules on the free program should be lightened up to make it more free. I think that the majority of skating fans would agree. The Devil is in the details. :yes:

Dan said:

Can the two sequences be any sequences or must one be step and one be choreographic?

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Are we specifically talking about senior ladies freeskate?

One is a leveled step sequence and one is a choreographic sequence.

Between approximately 2000 and 2010, i.e., in both 6.0 and IJS rules, the well-balanced freeskate for senior ladies included a step sequence and a spiral sequence. In the IJS part of that period, the spiral sequence was leveled. Starting with the 2011 season, the spiral sequence was changed to "choreographic sequence" -- originally it had to include at least one spiral and it had to come after the leveled step sequence, but those requirements are no longer in effect.

Dan said:

Now this is a new twist (pun intended) on the Zayak rule. I had never read anything in only repeating two triples until today. After some research I found something tha the two repeated triples limit was added in 2014. Is this correct?

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NO.
There were some tweaks made in 2014 mainly regarding double jumps, but the Zayak repeat-triple rule has always limited the number of repeated triples to two since it was first introduced in 1982-83.

To answer Mathman's question, I don't have the wording of the Zayak rule as it was originally introduced. A while ago I borrowed an acquaintance's collection of old Skating magazines, read them cover to cover, but only copied out pages I was especially interested in before I returned them. So I'm relying on memory here.

The new rule for 1983 was that only two different triples could be repeated, and they had to be in combination at least one of the times they were repeated. I think the "two times" was included but in ambiguous wording. E.g., does "repeated two times" mean you can do the jump only twice, or you can do it once and then you can repeat it two more times? The original wording might have allowed for the latter interpretation. I do remember reading a column or response to letters to the editor in the magazine that explained what was or wasn't allowed, and 3T+3T and solo 3T was given as a legal example that first year. I think after 1984 the rule was reworded to clarify that that was not legal.

The rule got colloquially named after Zayak because she became the poster child for racking up scores for repeated triples when she won Worlds with five triple toes in her freeskate. But she wasn't the only skater doing more than three of the same triple, and others were worse than her at doing the same triple two or three times without any combinations. For example, this little girl with three solo 3S and three solo 3T.

I don't know that I'm familiar with enough early 80s programs to find an example, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some men who had three or four different triples in their repertoire and repeated them all to try to keep up with those who could do five or six different ones.



Tracking the history of the rule changes is tricky, especially going back before the Internet.

To answer questions about what's legal now, get familiar with the current applicable documents where the rules are set out, explained, or summarized. See my links and those by Bumdid and rollerblade above.

Why do they call it free when there doesn't seem much free about it?

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Well, the free skate was originally called free skate in contrast to compulsory figures. And then also and eventually only in contrast to the short program. It was originally a lot freer than it is now -- the Zayak rule in the early 80s was the first restriction introduced, then in the 90s/early 00s more guidelines and restrictions were introduced to the "well-balanced freeskate" and with IJS the requirements and restrictions are even stricter.

But there are still a lot more options in the free skate than in the short program.

gkelly said:

Are we specifically talking about senior ladies freeskate?

One is a leveled step sequence and one is a choreographic sequence.

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I think Dan was mixing up step sequences with jump sequences, as mentioned in the post that he was responding to.

For example, this little girl with three solo 3S and three solo 3T.

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What, no triple Axel?

Anyway, she gets the cute exemption from all pesky rules. :yes:

Dan, here is a good example of how the Zayak restrictions can affect the lump layout.

At Four Continents Patrick Chan did

4T+3T
3A
4T
3A+2T
3Lz+2T+2Lo
3Lo
3S
3F

This is pretty much the maximum for a skater who has only one kind of quad. Notice that Patrick repeated his two highest-valued jumps, the 4T and the 3A. Note also that he could not have done 3A+3T for his Axel combination, because that would mean that he repeated three different jumps, the 4T, 3A, and 3T.

Earlier in the season, his comeback was a “work in progress.” He didn’t have the second quad and the second triple Axel ready yet. So he did:

4T+3T
3A

3T (holding the place in the program to insert a 4T when he had it together)

3Lz+2T (he cannot do 3Lz+3T because he already did two 3T’s)

3Lz+2T+2Lo (he repeats his highest-valued jump (not counting the 4T and the 3A). Now his two allowed repeated jumps are 3T and 3Lz)

3Lo
3S
3F

Here is an example of how the new (2014) rule about double jumps comes into play.

At 4CCs Gracie Gold did:

3Lz (intending 3Lz+3T but she couldn't get the second jump off)

3Lo
2A
2A+2T+2T
3F

3Lz+1T (Gracie thinks fast. She already did a 3Lz, so she must do a combo. She can’t pull off a 3Lz+3T this late in the program -- too tired. But she can’t do 3Lz+2T because she has already done two 2Ts. Her only option is to do 3Lz+1T. She gets practically nothing for the 1T, but it saves the 3Lz from being zeroed out as part of an illegal element.)

3S

She repeated only one triple jump, but at least it was her highest-scoring element, the triple Lutz. She only did two combos instead of the three she was allowed. All of this was because she missed her intended opening 3Lz+3T and had to improvise on the fly as best she could.

Still, she managed to salvage a base score of 51.54 – fairly respecable and good enough for third place in the long.

Many posters to this board feel that it is unreasonable and contrary to the ideals of the sport ("whoever skates best ought to win") to require that skaters keep all possible contingency plans in their heads so they can switch gears in the middle of the program to make sure they don't have points taken away because they didn't thread the Zayak needle properly.

Back in the day it was easier. Michelle Kwan had a plan A and a plan B. If she hit her opening 3T+3T, then her last element was a split jump. Choreographically, it made the program pop.

If she missed the triple-triple, then at the end she threw in an extra triple toe to bring he triple count up, foregoing the split jump. Just saying …

What are the rules regarding axels? Can they do two 3A + one 2A in the free? (clearly a 3Acombo and 3Asolo)

3A is a game changer. It ups the overall BV by 9.13 points. But it's not currenly attainable unless Liza starts having more success with the 3A. Mao has better success rate with the 3A but her 3Z suffers from edge calls.

Mathman said:

Back in the day it was easier. Michelle Kwan had a plan A and a plan B. If she hit her opening 3T+3T, then her last element was a split jump. Choreographically, it made the program pop.

If she missed the triple-triple, then at the end she threw in an extra triple toe to bring he triple count up, foregoing the split jump. Just saying …

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I loved the way Michelle ends her Salome FS at 1996 Worlds! She punched it home with the 3T, and it worked so well with the music.

rollerblade said:

What are the rules regarding axels? Can they do two 3A + one 2A in the free? (clearly a 3Acombo and 3Asolo)

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Yes. 2A and 3A are different jumps. You're allowed to do two of each. The triple must be in combination at least one of the times in order to get full credit the second time. Doubles are allowed to be solo both times.

rollerblade said:

Can they do that? You had THREE 3Lo in the 2nd scenario. And in both cases, THREE triples were repeated on top of the repeated 2Lo. I didn't dig up the rulebook, but deduced from GPF, EC, 4CC.... that you're only allowed to repeate TWO triples and ONE double. If they are allowed, then I have to edit my post again.

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Whoops, just saw the problem. I went back and edited the last one to replace the solo 3Lo with solo 2Lz.

Of course maximizing the base value is not the same as maximizing the TES, and difficult combinations are less likely to earn the highest GOEs.

But if we think in terms of trying to fit the 11 highest value jumps allowed into 7 jump passes as allowed, given what's possible in terms of combinations, the best answer would probably be
7 triples with lutz and flip repeated, 2 double axels, 2 double loops
or 7 triples with lutz and loop repeated, 2 double axels, 1 double loop, 1 double lutz

Mix and match as needed to fit the allowed slots, and the specific skater's strengths.

gkelly said:

But if we think in terms of trying to fit the 11 highest value jumps allowed into 7 jump passes as allowed, given what's possible in terms of combinations, the best answer would probably be

7 triples with lutz and flip repeated, 2 double axels, 2 double loops 46.6]

or 7 triples with lutz and loop repeated, 2 double axels, 1 double loop, 1 double lutz [46.7]

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I am beginning to see the merit in the half-loop combo. I don't think that either of these layouts is possible without a a combo that ends in +3Lo. If we include such combos on the list of elements that our skater just can't do (along with a triple Axel), then we have to design a program with a 3F or 3S as the second element in a combination. This gives a total of 45.7, losing only 1 point in the exchange.

Does any lady do 2A+3Lo or 2A + half-loop + 3F ?