Is Ladies Skating Stagnant? Why or Why Not?

I feel like the reason the ladies field is stagnant and no girl up their tech is because of the overscoring and unfair judging.

People can scream whatever about the men getting inflation BUT there is a fact that all the top men are upgrading their layout and the leader has the hardest program with best quality says a lot. The men are pushing the sport. In the pair, several pairs are doing both quad twist and throw and even side by side lutz, there will be a time they do side by side 3lz3T and the ladies will be left behind and will only see the smoke from afar.

The issue with ladies is that judges keep rewarding easier layout with huge score just because some skaters are consistent. People can say whatever they think about Evegnia, she is overscored yes but at least she has two 3-3 and tons of tanos even though not beautiful, so in a way she is still pushing the difficulty.
Mao at her best with 8 triples only got 72 TES!!! Judges don't even care to consider how hard it is to push such hard layout. They don't even care.

And exactly because of this, most ladies will not even care to train 3A or even harder combo like 3lz3lo and 3A3T or even quad, because it's useless. Now they don't even need 3-3 in a long to get almost 75 TES.

This is why ladies are so slowwwww and so much behind the guys and even the pairs.

ETA, These slo mo videos by Sam Skwantch are relevant
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...(AKA-Sam-s-Jump-a-ma-tron)/page33#post1380526

I am so mad that Satako Miyahara is getting constant 142s with those extremely pre-rotated, always underrotated and 10cm above ground jumps that last less than a half second. I'm starting to think that Japan Fed has completely given up on Mao and pushing Satako simply because they have no one else and she's "consistent" lmao. Was any of Miyahara's long programs as amazing, powerful and artistic as Mao's Rachmaninoff programs? a big NO. She's the best example of this season's crazy inflation of scores and being judges' favorite along with Evgenia though Evgenia is far better than Miya. Also, I know that it's not wise to compare scores from different competitions but Satako getting almost 73 for her 4cc sp with underrotated 3-3 when Mao's 4triple program with 3A3F3Lo3Lz which are hardest 4 of the triple jumps gets only a 71 from the blind and discriminating judges. This is just sad because I have recently become fan of Mao and seems like Mao has been getting this kind of treatment almost for her entire career and she still skates beautifully and always gives the most difficult programs despite knowing that certain chosen skaters will get higher score than her even if she does a crazy program like Yuzuru Hanyu's gpf. ok that was exagerrated but I know that many will disagree with me but also many others agree with me. :sad21:

I don´t know, I love Satoko, and her jumps at 4cc looked better. She has not the most impressive jumps but in general her skating is sooo beautiful. The day judges punish Evgenia, Liza and Elena R. because her ugly posture, spins, step seq and mediocres programs then that day I will complain about Satoko getting high points because her jumps.

And about Mao, the same of always, she is not favored because she is inconsistent, but I am pretty sure if she is clean at worlds the gold is hers.

Since Mao has given me the greatest the performances I have ever seen and it is near the anniversary of my very favorite, the Sochi LP, I feel like I should try to defend her deflated scores in light of all the comments made since yesterday.

First of all, I think Satoko has nice skating skills and artistry. I also think she handles pressure well, but I like Mao's skating, artistry and expression much better. I think Satoko's jumps though consistent are lacking a lot in quality to receive the scores she is getting, especially since jumps are by far the largest part of tech scores and since she is not getting the tech calls and lower GOE she should get. Satoko's received a huge tech score of 74 + for tiny jumps with no ur or edge calls, +1.4 GOE on two 2A / 3T combos, and a very high 12 points in GOE on the 2nd anniversary of Mao's Sochi LP, even though Mao's LP had around 4 points more in base score. This is after deductions in the base for what I think are bogus ur calls on Mao's 3F / 3L and 2A / 3T, especially considering the generous calls given in the final flight. Satoko's LP at 4CCs was given almost an identical score to Mao's Sochi LP which had only 7 points in GOE, even though Mao jumps have greater height and distance, more balletic flow and expression in and out with better posture and more symmetrical air position. This is what my eyes see in reality but it contradicts the scores that are given to Mao regularly not only in the Sochi LP and my friends agree.

Regarding the tech calls on Satoko at 4CC's, most of the jumpst I saw took off with 270 degrees or a little less in pre-rotation. So, if the landings were even at 90 degrees they should be ur in my opinion, which a lot of them were. The 2nd 3T in the backend 2A / 3T has right at or just slightly over 2 rotations with a visible wobble of in the skate on slow mo replay but still received no call and +1.4 GOE. By contrast, Mao's backend 2A /3T at Nationals with a much bigger and better rotated double axel received a ur call and negative GOE even though it has over 2 1/4 rotations and much more height, symmetrical rotation, erect posture on landing. The ur calls should and GOE should be reversed.

I also think there should have been an edge call on Satoko's flip in both the SP and LP, as there was in the Grand Prix Final SP, or at least a ur call in the SP and LP. In the LP, there is about 240 degrees of pre-rotation and the landing is close to 90 degrees. On both flips, Satoko turned while most of her inside edge was in contact with the ice on take off during the 3F in both the SP and LP. By contrast, Mao's triple flips only have the inside edge picking the ice on take off with considerably less pre-rotation. Furthermore, I think Satoko should have gotten a ur call on her backend 3T in the short on the 3 lutz / 3 T combo in the SP, as others have mentioned. Slow motion replay shows that there were only 2 rotations in the air at most on this jump, yet it was still counted good, Also, when Satoko takes off on the triple lutz, she turns and picks into the ice at the same time (instead of picking and then turning in the air) with quite a bit of inside skating blade in contact with the ice so the total rotation and edge seems very questionable as well. In the LP, the backend 2A / 3T is pre-rotated almost 270 degrees and the landing As someone mentioned on the 4CC thread, I think it is wrong not to count obvious pre-rotation if edges are supposed to be so heavily scrutinized, though they haven't been on the 3F for Satoko at the 4CC and Nationals or for Evgenia on her triple lutz all season or Gracie on her triple flip until the 4CC's, while Mao got called on a triple lutz edge in the Cup of China SP and had costly pops trying to get a clean edge. It was only when she had a completely clean inside toe pick at Nationals that she finally got a very clean triple lutz edge and jump but was given a mere +.4 GOE.

Finally in the 4CC's, I believe the opening 3Lutz / 2 loop / 2 toe in Satoko's long should have had a ur call on the second double, since I saw a significant hook on landing. Satoko seemed to skip through one of the doubles like she did at Nationals where it received a ur, but it wasn't called at 4CC's. I also believe Satoko should have had much lower GOE on her jumps. If Mao's highest GOE on any jump at Nationals was only +.9 GOE and her highest GOE on any jump in the Sochi LP was only +.8 GOE with two bogus ur calls in my view, then Satoko's peak GOE of +1.4 GOE at 4CC's should be exchanged with Mao's at least, though to me Satoko's should be even lower due to the heavy pre-rotation and lack of height and distance. As I mentioned in another thread, I also consider it unjust that Mao got only a level 3 in step sequence and Satoko level 4, as well as the stingy GOE Mao got on her spins compared to Satoko at Nationals and the 4CC's. Mao clearly has the best skating skills and has often been praised as an outstanding dancer and prima ballerina by dance instructors and almost always receives level 4 on steps. Furthermore, there was a double standard in ur calls at Nationals with Mao receiving a very strict ur call on her 2A / 3T which began with a huge double axel and finished with a very close to or borderline 3T, while what looked like a ur on Satoko's second triple lutz was overlooked even though Satoko received higher GOE on both her triple lutzes than Mao's mere +.4 GOE, with an edge and rotation that didn't look as clean due to reasons mentioned above. The total rotation on Mao's backend 3T in the 2A / 3T actually appears to be slightly more than Satoko's but Mao has far less pre-rotation, yet Satoko does not receive ur calls on this combo. I think it makes no sense that a jump is given a ur even though it has the same or more total rotation than another skater who does not get one because the rotation takes place in what is deemed as the "right" arc of the circle in rotation, especially when Mao's triple toe is more impressive in terms of height, symmetry, posture, flow and erect landing, in my opinion.

Note: Mao's maintains erect posture with little bending of the legs when completing the 2A / 3T which greatly heightens the aestheticism of her trip toe jump.

As far as the consistency argument goes, first of all it is not supposed to be rewarded especially by overly lenient tech calls because COP was instituted to give skaters the scores they actually earn for each separate performance. Furthermore, I think it is obvious that a more visually impressive jump with greater height and distance greatly increases the risk of falling and makes it more difficult to be consistent. Also, does this mean that heavily pre-rotated, borderline or overlooked urs or edge calls or jumps with a lot less height height and distance should consistently be given respectable GOE for some select skaters, while others with borderline or even very good jumps with more height, distance, flow and more symmetrical air position are "consistently" given ur's or given the same or less GOE? It happened to Mao's best jumps at Nationals compared to all of Satoko's jumps, where Mao's overall jump GOE on her best jumps was no better than Satoko's and worse if you include the double standard ur call on Mao's 2A / 3T. Also, As Meoima has already mentioned in the 4CC's thread, Mao had 3 ur calls in her Worlds 2014 LP with two of the jumping passes, the 3 A and 3F / 3L, receiving the highest GOE of all her jumps, +1.6 and +1.2 GOE respectively, before the bogus ur calls caused her to lose 7 points on those two jumping passes alone. Yet, that season Mao was the first skater to earn over 200 points 3 competitions in a row, including winning the Grand Prix Final, and had just skated two of the greatest performances ever, the Sochi LP and her world record Nocturne. So lack of "consistency" had nothing to do with the bogus ur calls. Regularizing the heavily deflated Sochi LP scores so that they appeared legitimate seems much more plausible.

Should a returning 3 time world champion in her first skate back after winning the championship receive a PCS score of under 70 and a score of only 141 with a triple axel and 7 triples for what in my view is still the best freeskate of the season when her last PCS score in competition was 72.7 in the Worlds 2014 LP? Now the score almost seems "low". Is this drop due to "inconsistency"? But what isn't low is Mao's view count on youtube. Mao's LP at the Japan Open has the most views of any other women's freeskate on youtube this season, even after many copies have been deleted, just as her underscored SP at the Cup of China has far, far move views; and her Sochi LP has a video with over 2.6 million views for a poor small screen copy.

But why is Evgenia, a skater first year out of Juniors, though quite good, getting PCS scores much higher than Mao's in the Japan Open? And if consistency is indeed so important to scores, then why did Ashley Wagner, though having a good skate in the Grand Prix Final LP, also get a much higher PCS score than Mao in the Japan Open after doing poorly in the short at the Grand Prix Final and in the NHK overall? I do not believe that both Evgenia's and Ashley's scores should have equaled Mao's all time high PCS score and I think they should have been considerably lower than Mao's PCS score at the Japan Open, which they both were until this season.

I feel the extra scrutiny that Mao has been under adds a lot of extra stress especially since she had recurrent illnesses and was returning from a year break with other top skaters around her receiving huge increases in PCS scores, more lenient tech calls and more generous GOE,which has contributed to her inconsistency and stress level this season. Basically, it is fundamentally unjust scoring by both the ISU and JSF in Nationals.. I wish Mao the best at Worlds and hope very much that she is scored fairly and that she skates great, but I am not holding my breath that she will be scored fairly. She has already done far more than enough. I just want her to skate for herself.

Meoima said:

^not just you think that way. I feel like the reason the ladies field is stagnant and no girl up their tech is because of the overscoring and unfair judging.
People can scream whatever about the men getting inflation BUT there is a fact that all the top men are upgrading their layout and the leader has the hardest program with best quality says a lot. The men are pushing the sport. In the pair, several pairs are doing both quad twist and throw and even side by side lutz, there will be a time they do side by side 3lz3T and the ladies will be left behind and will only see the smoke from afar.
The issue with ladies is that judges keep rewarding easier layout with huge score just because some skaters are consistent. People can say whatever they think about Evegnia, she is overscored yes but at least she has two 3-3 and tons of tanos even though not beautiful, so in a way she is still pushing the difficulty.
Mao at her best with 8 triples only got 72 TES!!! Judges don't even care to consider how hard it is to push such hard layout. They don't even care.
And exactly because of this, most ladies will not even care to train 3A or even harder combo like 3lz3lo and 3A3T or even quad, because it's useless. Now they don't even need 3-3 in a long to get almost 75 TES. Ha ha, thank you and goodbye judge.

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If that continues in the ladies field, it will turn into something like ice shows in the future and no longer a sport.... (joke, but no joke)

If I were there I would throw some thing very smelly at them.

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No! I WANT you to be one of the judges when Mao has competition. (I think, inconsistent is not the only reason she has been underscored. )

This is why ladies are so slowwwww and so much behind the guys and even the pairs.

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So truuuuue.


Since this is the sport the kind of ...(while it’s not skaters fault.)
I hate it because of that but I love to watch awesome skaters performances that I can’t really help, even love to following their off-ice activities that I can’t help too :hopelessness:

Meoima said:

^not just you think that way. I feel like the reason the ladies field is stagnant and no girl up their tech is because of the overscoring and unfair judging.
People can scream whatever about the men getting inflation BUT there is a fact that all the top men are upgrading their layout and the leader has the hardest program with best quality says a lot. The men are pushing the sport. In the pair, several pairs are doing both quad twist and throw and even side by side lutz, there will be a time they do side by side 3lz3T and the ladies will be left behind and will only see the smoke from afar.
The issue with ladies is that judges keep rewarding easier layout with huge score just because some skaters are consistent. People can say whatever they think about Evegnia, she is overscored yes but at least she has two 3-3 and tons of tanos even though not beautiful, so in a way she is still pushing the difficulty.
Mao at her best with 8 triples only got 72 TES!!! Judges don't even care to consider how hard it is to push such hard layout. They don't even care.
And exactly because of this, most ladies will not even care to train 3A or even harder combo like 3lz3lo and 3A3T or even quad, because it's useless. Now they don't even need 3-3 in a long to get almost 75 TES. Ha ha, thank you and goodbye judge. If I were there I would throw some thing very smelly at them.
This is why ladies are so slowwwww and so much behind the guys and even the pairs.

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Ikr. The ladies will be forever stuck with their 5-6 triples (cause only a few manage to complete 7 in each competition) and they don't even have to worry about jump quality and difficulty since they can follow the footsteps of the great Miyahara
Only Mao and Liza give me hope to see some development in ladies skating but the judges never seem to notice what they sacrifice and how hard they work to give more exciting and harder routines and sadly they even seem to penalize them more instead of rewarding them.
If men's field had similar development as the ladies', we could've possibly seen the same routine as Scott Hamilton's Olympic performance medalling at 2014 olympics lol
If Satako becomes world champion with those poor triples which are actually double jumps in disguise and her mediocre skating skills, ladies' FS should stop being an olympic sport imo. Without strong technical aspects such as jumps, step sequence and speed it's just dancing. Satako's skating might look beautiful because she does have some musicality and artistry, but a program with artistry alone doesn't deserve a world medal. It would be huge drop in quality of world champions considering the reigning champion has the most impressive jumps among todays ladies, and the 2014 and 2013 champions are total packages with the most beautiful artistry I've ever seen and are one of the best jumpers and skaters overall.

The way TES and PCS are judged those recent times has changed, and can be quite harder to understand. But is it a reason to pick on Miyahara like bullies? It's SO easy to do when your favourites don't win or get similar rewards in other competitions.
The quality of the jumps matters a lot, that's obvious, and big jumps are prefered by everyone (me included). But if there're not executed well with good entrance, posture, line, landing, etc., they won't have huge points (just see Boyang who has many quads but a clean Boyang compared to a clean Hanyu who both has less quads is still behind in TES). Satoko has these with her current jumps (+very fast rotation), but they're not big and thus, no judge will give +3 on any of them (when she gets positive bonus on a jump, it's always a majority of +1, with a few +2). I LOVE Satoko, she's one of my favourite skaters (my #1 fav remaining Mao), but if I see a judge giving her a +3 on a jump nowadays, I'll be like... "Mmm, what? " A lot of Satoko fans like me thought she was a bit overscored on the TES at 4CC, but this competition is known for being inflated, anyway. Satoko's biggest GOE bonus are always on the spins and stpsq, not the jumps. She's working on getting bigger ones because she knows she really needs it, but such things take time. Do you really think she likes to jump small? No, she really doesn't. She wants to jump bigger and eventually learn 3A (like other skaters like Alaine, Anna, Gracie, etc...) once she can, and she knows such things take a long time with hard work. She is a hard worker, and I trust we'll see bigger jumps in the next years that, hopefully, will make people stop whining because she's currently beating their fav who are not as consistent as her and fail to deliver.

Mao has huge jumps but this season, major issues have prevented her to get the scores she deserves, as we all know that she was sick, lacked training time and such. Considering she decided to skip 4CC to focus on Worlds, we can trust her to do much better there. For example, Satoko was clean at 4CC, but her SP is only 0.75 points ahead of Mao's COC 2015 SP who had edge and UR calls. So, a clean Mao VS a clean Satoko at Worlds? I don't see how Mao will not be ahead, then, except if Evgenia is clean and up her game, especially with her LP (she already has all her jumps on the second half of her SP, which gives her quite a bonus).

^^ I like Satoko's skating and feel she puts forth a very commendable effort to give nice performances. She is graceful and talented, though I like Mao's skating, artistry and jumps much better. It is the judges I have an issue with. The following is a general comment about the scoring.

In regards to Mao's SP in the Cup of China mentioned in your post, I believe Mao received comparatively harsh ur and edge calls, not to mention PCS that was well below her last SP at Worlds 2014, compared to the calls And PCS that have been given for other skaters’ SP performances this season. On Russian TV, certainly not the place you would think of as being a big supporter of Mao with Elena and Anna still to skate, the announcers said that they very seriously doubted that Mao's world record would stand when she finished, and then her tech score fell by more than 7 points. They basically said something like "How is that?" when they saw the actual score indicating they were surprised by how low it was. Edit: I think the e call on the 3 lutz is is too strict given the standards for some other top skaters this season that have not been called on the flip and the lutz. If there had not been a double standard, I could see a strict caller giving it an e, but there was, so given the standards for the season, I think it should receive a !. The backend of the 3F / 3L was at the 1/4 mark, and in my opinion should have been called good, especially considering the beautiful height, distance and flow in and out of the jump with the beautiful leg lift on exit. For women, I think Mao's SP at the Cup of China should clearly be the highest SP score of the season just like her Madame Butterfly at the Japan Open.

Their reaction makes me flashback to the Russian pairs Champion Maxim Trankov who said this after Mao finished her Sochi LP, "She (Mao) would have been Olympic champion. It is the performance that only an Olympic Champion could do." Yet, neither of these performances are or were anywhere near the top score of the season, just as Mao's magnificent Madame Butterfly isn't. The Sochi LP should be a world record. It is the same case when I show Mao's better performances to friends. They do not understand or really care about how the scores were calculated; they just think that Mao's performances are clearly better that other women skaters and more enjoyable to watch. They love the airy loft on her jumps, her artistry, musicality and smooth skating. They even like Mao's National's LP better despite the mistakes. I know there are others that disagree and like other skaters' performances more and that Mao has had some rougher performances this season and in the past, as most all skaters have in a long career. But in my opinion, this shows that overall there is a disconnect between the scores Mao receives and the higher opinion that most others have of her performances, not to mention the massive view counts with glowing praise on youtube. As for me, she moves my soul and emotions like no other, and this is a feeling that can't be quantified.

I am optimistic that Mao will deliver great performances at Worlds and I will certainly look forward to watching her skate if she continues competitively next season. But after she retires, I really look forward to watching Mao skate outside of the ISU scoring system, especially when I see such incredibly moving performances as her new Jupiter exhibition, in which she addresses despair and hope with such profoundly moving expression in unison with the children, and has the guts to include the triple axel.

gotoschool said:

^^ I like Satoko's skating and feel she puts forth a very commendable effort to give nice performances. She is graceful and talented. It is the judges I have an issue with. The following is a general comment.

In regards to Mao's SP in the Cup of China mentioned in your post, I believe Mao received comparatively harsh ur and edge calls, not to mention PCS that was well below her last SP at Worlds 2014, compared to the calls that have been made for other skaters’ SP performances this season. On Russian TV, certainly not the place you would think of as being a big supporter of Mao with Elena and Anna still to skate, the announcers said that they very seriously doubted that Mao's world record would stand when she finished, and then her tech score fell by more than 7 points. They basically said something like "How is that?" when they saw the actual score indicating they were surprised by how low it was. The call on the 3 lutz is understandable, though more strict than others I have seen on others, and the backend of the 3F / 3L looked to be at the 1/4 mark, and in my opinion should have been called good, compared to others that have been called good this season.

Their reaction is a flashback to the Russian pairs Champion Maxim Trankov who said this after Mao finished her Sochi LP, "She (Mao) would have been Olympic champion. It is the performance that only an Olympic Champion could do," Yet, neither of these performances are or were anywhere near the top score of the season, just as Mao's magnificent Madame Butterfly isn't. It is the same case when I show Mao's better performances to friends. They do not understand or really care about how the scores were calculated; they just think that Mao's performances are clearly better and more enjoyable to watch. They love the airy loft on her jumps, her artistry, musicality and smooth skating. They even like Mao's National's LP better despite the mistakes. I know there are others that disagree and that Mao has had some other outings that were a bit rough this and in past seasons, but in my opinion this shows that overall there is a disconnect between the scores Mao receives and the higher opinion that most others have of her performances, not to mention the massive view counts she has on youtube.

I am optimistic that Mao will deliver great performances at Worlds and I will certainly look forward to watching her skate if she continues competitively next season. But after she retires, I really look forward to watching Mao skate outside of the ISU scoring system, especially when I see such incredibly moving performances as her new Jupiter exhibition, in which she addresses despair and hope with such profoundly moving expression in unison with the children, and has the guts to include the triple axel.

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After Mao finished her SP at COC, I was sure she'd go above her World record, so I was confused just as them. I waited for the protocols to see what was going on and had to watch the SP in slow replay to check for the mistakes. Sometimes, mistakes are hard as hell to see (especially the UR on the loop).
Indeed, Mao's LP at Sochi was the best but, alas, the SP happened and it, unfortunately, affected the final outcome (which is trully unfair), and that was heartbreaking.

Mao's style is unmatched even today, but despite what happened in the past, I'm very sure that she can still reach the highest scores. While I'd have loved to see her skating at 4CC, it was a wise choice to not go and to focus on Worlds instead (it also gave the opportunity to Kanako to redeem herself. The LP didn't go well, but at least the SP was a success and did boost her confidence). It's giving her more time to get ready mentally and physically for the competition.
I'm also optimistic regarding World for Mao. While it would be amazing to see her winning a 4th title, I, above all, want her to do performances that will make her happy. It's a bit selfish from me to hope she won't retire after that competition, but even if she does, I hope she'll go for some professional competitions (like MWO that includes mostly retired competitors) or at least, continue her show and participate to activities related to figure skating.

chapis said:

I don´t know, I love Satoko, and her jumps at 4cc looked better. She has not the most impressive jumps but in general her skating is sooo beautiful. The day judges punish Evgenia, Liza and Elena R. because her ugly posture, spins, step seq and mediocres programs then that day I will complain about Satoko getting high points because her jumps.

And about Mao, the same of always, she is not favored because she is inconsistent, but I am pretty sure if she is clean at worlds the gold is hers.

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ita

Meoima said:

And exactly because of this, most ladies will not even care to train 3A or even harder combo like 3lz3lo and 3A3T or even quad, because it's useless. Now they don't even need 3-3 in a long to get almost 75 TES. Ha ha, thank you and goodbye judge. If I were there I would throw some thing very smelly at them.

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Most skaters have little incentive to do this since difficulty of combination isn't rewarded. A women is going to do 7/8 triples, it doesn't matter how you do it. There is a slight point advantage to doing a 3Lz + 3Lo combo, since then you could do two triple loops and two non-axel double jumps, but this is a minimal gain in points relative to the difficulty of a loop on the backend of a combo. I think COP is a huge, needlessly complicated mess - but within that framework it makes no sense not to reward difficult combinations. The desire to do difficult combinations is even reduced now that 3T, 3S point value has been raised.

Stagnating in what way?

Jump difficulty? Jump size or other aspects of quality?

Difficulty and quality of spins, steps, miscellaneous moves used in choreo sequences and as transitions?

Intricacy of whole programs?

Artistry?


There are always going to be pendulum swings where some of those areas take a back seat (sorry for the mixed metaphor) while skaters seem to concentrate on other areas, other areas seem necessary to win medals.

When enough skaters reach the same plateau in one area, then they'll need to focus on outdoing each other in one or more of the other areas.

And then 5 or 10 or 20 years later, there'll be a plateau there and another area will take precedence.

What the rules reward and what the judges tend to reward has some effect on where skaters put their emphases. So do the limits of the human body (adolescent and postadolescent athletic female version) and the current state of equipment and technique.

So basically the real point of this thread is that Satoko Miyahara makes the ladies' skating stagnant because she doesn't have a 3-3 in her FS (but has two 2A-3T combinations in the second half of the program with 10% bonus) while Evgenia Medvedeva's 222 total at GPF was completely justified because she pushes the sport with tanos (??) and has two 3-3 combinations. Has Miyahara beaten Medvedeva with her outrageous lack of 3-3 in the free? No. Miyahara performs the layout she is most comfortable with at the moment. But I guess having a 2A-3T combination as the 10th element of the program is not pushing the sport at all.

Has anyone considered that with this so-called "pushing" of the sport comes a greater risk of injury? Concussions, joint injuries and so on. In the men's event at the moment, Hanyu and Jin are the only skaters who don't give me anxiety attacks when I watch them jump their quads because they are naturally talented jumpers. The others are currently a mess but they receive bigger scores anyway. For pushing the sport I guess. Same thing goes for pairs. Maxim Trankov has already talked about it. Wenjing Sui and Xiaoyu Yu have competed injured at 4CC. Yuko Kavaguti is out of the season. So how much of "pushing the sport" is enough?

For me, the problem is that great difficulties in ladies are not awarded very much or are considered useful by the coaches. Medvedeva is surely doing something more difficult than most of the other ladies this season with her three jumping passes all in the bonus in the SP and two 3-3 combinations in the free, butin my personal opinion she is not pushing the others to add extra difficulties to their program, and this because her LP base value is lower than Miyahara (that did not have a 3-3 combination in the LP), or Gold. And for me, in this situation, Satoko is really smart doing two 2A-3T instead of a 3-3 where she (should) receive often URs calls. So the content of Medvedeva, although very difficult, are awarded the same of the others, and she is receiving great scores only for her consistency and quality (tanos, for example). The fact is: why adding extra difficulties to the programs while a skater can play it relatively safe and rest in the group of the best? Asada did very difficult program through her career but she was not awarded for that, and the judging system was changed adding edge calls and extra scrutiny on URs in 2008 for limit her or other skaters to receive great scores "simply" adding a triple axel in their layouts too. So Asada was relatively pushed down by the ISU and no other ladies attempted a 3A in competition before Tuktamysheva last year. Regarding Liza, this year she has been extremely inconsistent and attempting extra difficulties has not helped her. Mao too has been inconsistent through her career. So the thoughts of the coaches could be: why adding extra difficulties if this makes the skaters inconsistent? The problem is that, while last summer, with Tuktamysheva's outing at the Worlds SP so many ladies were trying to learn a 3A, this season the entire prospective has changed, with Liza and Mao not being able to land it consostently and Chartrand's disastrous attempts in the GP series, and at the same time, the leader of the movement in this moment that is not really adding revolutionary elements to her programs.

I think women also have the disadvantage of puberty (or beauty spurt as many like to call it here).

They need to learn their jumps before their bodies change or else it is difficult to change as an adult. Alex Ouriashev stated in his TSL interview that ladies need to learn the hard jumps before they grow or else they are difficult to get back. That is why Liza and Mao can still do 3A. Otherwise, it is nearly impossible for them to pick them up.

Maybe ISU will change the system next year to reward harder combinations for ladies.

3F+3Lo = 10.40
3Lz+3T = 10.30

There's basically no incentive to try harder combinations. Someone pointed out the difference in BV (or lack of) a couple months ago here and it was disappointing to see that Mao got so little credit for something is definitely much more difficult.

I think that the top ladies should be capable of doing a clean 3-3 in the SP, but I don't need to see it in the FS necessarily, also because they have to do so many jumping passes in the FS. But I want to see all types of triples (without the 3A, but it's nice of course if it's there!). And I think that 2x 2A-3T is meh.

Some various thoughts:

Yuna didn't do one of the triples in the LP, Mao 3-3 was iffy, and Kostner would opt for repeating the two easiest triples in the LP and would do 3 2Ts.
I can tell looking at the Korean, Russian, and Japanese youngsters that if not 3A you will at least have a quite a few of ladies doing SP's without 3T... either 3F 3Lo 3Lz OR 3Lo 3Lo 3Lz OR 3Lo 3Lo 3F.
The judging system tbh doesn't do a good job rewarding a whole class of difficult combinations so under this system it doesn't make any sense to do say a 3-3-3 combination... tbh, 3Lz+3Lo doesn't make much sense outside of the SP.
I'm somewhat opposed to the 3A in the SP for ladies skating... it will just allow running up the score and remove a lot of tension and drama. Just imagine Tsurskaya with a consistant 3A.

psusanne said:

I think that the top ladies should be capable of doing a clean 3-3 in the SP, but I don't need to see it in the FS necessarily, also because they have to do so many jumping passes in the FS. But I want to see all types of triples (without the 3A, but it's nice of course if it's there!). And I think that 2x 2A-3T is meh.

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I like this and agree. It's gotten so that I watch only a few ladies skaters these past few years because most of them are, IMO, boring. They're concentrating so hard on their jumps, plus the scoring system doesn't really reward very much those interesting moves that make figure skating the artistic sport that it used to be (remembering the days of that gorgeous change edge spiral from one side of the rink to the other done by Kwan, the beautiful Ina Bauers that lasted more than half a second done by several skaters, etc). I now get my art/sport fulfillment from ice dance (which has changed for the better).

I think a better question would be, "Is skating stagnant" I think the new scoring system has definitely made it harder for an artistic skater to be successful. Look at the "Scandal" that quadless Evan caused at the Olympics. If Med skates a decent LP and loses to a perfect Ashley Wagner. There will be Chaos.......My money is still on Med and even more so after 4CC. But hey, we'll just have to wait and see. My dreams have Med, Mao, and Gracie on the podium.

MeineKatze said:

Ikr. The ladies will be forever stuck with their 5-6 triples (cause only a few manage to complete 7 in each competition) and they don't even have to worry about jump quality and difficulty since they can follow the footsteps of the great Miyahara

If Satako becomes world champion with those poor triples which are actually double jumps in disguise and her mediocre skating skills, ladies' FS should stop being an olympic sport imo. Without strong technical aspects such as jumps, step sequence and speed it's just dancing. .

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First, I think the tone of your post is rather mean: "great Miyahara". Do you really need to sound unpleasent and diminish Satoko when stating your opinion? It is really unnecessary.
Second: Satoko DOES NOT HAVE mediocre skating skills. Just because you repeat it over and over does not mean it becomes true.

I have a feeling that this thread is created to bash one skater.