Michelle Kwan vs. Irina Slutskaya | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Michelle Kwan vs. Irina Slutskaya

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
nymkfan51 said:
Also, mzheng ... I know you posted on MKF about Michelle not being back at the rink yet, but that you thought she was in Connecticut. I assumed that would be to work with Morozov. IMO it is still quite early to be training hard. Michelle just finished COI 3 weeks ago, so I actually expected her to take a personal break for a little bit before jumping back into serious training. Even Sasha, who ended her COI tour a month before MK, is only just now getting back to the rink.
Do you think Michelle is not serious about getting back to training? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but you seem a bit unsure about her plans to go on.

nymkfan51, my original post was based on what MathMan posted what her coach said about her. IMO, she is going to use this season test water of CoP, if she is doing well in GP she might just continue to 2006.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
If I have to sit thru the 7th season in a row of "I know that I have to up the ante" and then not do it, I'll just scream. -- Berthe's Ghost
ITA about MK's favorite saying--yep, saying you need to up the ante doesn't mean a damn thing unless you actually do it. -- Icewings
I think our sweet 'Chelle has been having us on, and we have fallen for it. Looking at all those interviews over the last couple of years, I think she's saying, IF I were serious about this I would be upping the ante. But since I haven't really decided on anything yet, I'll just coast along for a while, pick up another couple of national championships and world medals, and see what happens.

I might be wrong, but I think no one was more surprised than she when she won the U.S. and world championships in a cakewalk in 2003.

As for Irina, I am encouraged by her performance at the Marshall's competition. She skated great and maybe deserved as high as third, against impressive competition. She rushed her recovery too much in trying to compete at Dortmund -- probably in part because the Russian team needed her.

Mathman
 

skatingfan5

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Quotes from the coach

mzheng said:
nymkfan51, my original post was based on what MathMan posted what her coach said about her. IMO, she is going to use this season test water of CoP, if she is doing well in GP she might just continue to 2006.
Arutunian says, "Cross your fingers she will be there in '06...I will talk to her about starting to compete next season. I wish to make her compete in the Grand Prix Series. I would never dictate, we would have a conversation. It will depend on how she feels."
Since this quote of Arutunian's is from a magazine that just came out and monthly print magazines usually have at least a 3-4 week lead time, I think that Michelle and Rafael may already have had that conversation. After all, it was just two weeks ago that the GP assignments came out, with Michelle's name in there for Skate America and Skate Canada. It certainly is possible that she might change her mind, but to me it seems as though she is planning to "test the CoP waters" this next season. There is three months until the first event that she is likely to be in -- the Campbell's event on October 1 -- so her not being in full training mode yet is not so unusual.

I agree with Mathman (or whoever it was, if not him) that Irina looked much better at the Marshall's comp than at Worlds the week earlier. Of course, that was just a single program, vs. the 3 she had to skate at Worlds. I am hoping that her physical condition will allow her to continue competing as long as she desires.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
My personal feelings about both of them is that their best figure skating is behind them. These veterans will still look good out there but there will be those very young skaters (think Ota, Phaneuf, etc.) battling it out for the podium.

It would be nice to see La Kwan and La Slutskaya both have a great last hurrah.

Joe
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
If we're talking about 2005 Worlds, there is no guarantee Ota will even be on the World Team. Arakawa, Ando and Suguri all finished in the top 7 at 2004 Worlds, and they are tough competition. Yukina is a lovely skater, but she does have a problem with underrotated jumps. If the others finish better in the 2004-2005 Grand Prix than Ota does, her chances of making the World Team are not great.

Cynthia Phaneuf is a promising skater, but it is a huge leap from 10th at Junior Worlds to the World podium in one year. Let's see how she does against Senior skaters at the Grand Prix.

Ota and Phaneuf are indeed younger than Kwan and Slutskaya, but they are not 'very young'. By the time 2005 Worlds comes around, Ota will be 18 and Phaneuf 17. If you're talking 'very young', there's Mai Asada, Katy Taylor and Kimmie Meissner. Asada is old enough to go to Worlds, but like Ota, she isn't likely to make the Japanese World Team. Taylor and Meissner are too young for big Worlds.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Joesitz said:
My personal feelings about both of them is that their best figure skating is behind them. These veterans will still look good out there but there will be those very young skaters (think Ota, Phaneuf, etc.) battling it out for the podium.

It would be nice to see La Kwan and La Slutskaya both have a great last hurrah.

Joe
I don't think that Michelle's best work is behind her. I just think that the competition has caught up. In 1998-99 Michelle dominated ladies figure skating and really was in a class by herself. She won every event she participated in -- and there were a lot of them -- between the 1998 Olympics and 1999 Worlds....(oh no, I feel iambic pentameter coming on...)

Michelle bestrode her world of ice like great
Colossus arching o'er the harbor'd ships
At worthy Rhodes. 'Sblood! the girl can skate!

(OK, I got that out of my system.)

But this period was bookended by the retirement of Tara Lipinski from competition and the rebirth of Irina Slutskaya in 2000.

About "upping the ante," I think this played a roll Michelle's decision to part with Frank Carroll in 1998. Frank believed that Michelle was the greatest skater in the world doing what she was doing, so why change? But Michelle wanted to increase the technical content of her programs. Which she did, attempting two triple/triple combinations at Skate Canada a week after her split with Frank (with unfortunate results).

Skatingfan5, yes, this quote from Arutunian was at Worlds. I have no reason to doubt that Michelle will be there at Skate America. I can't wait!:)

Mathman
 

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Mathman said:
... She won every event she participated in -- and there were a lot of them -- between the 1998 Olympics and 1999 Worlds...

About "upping the ante," I think this played a roll Michelle's decision to part with Frank Carroll in 1998. Frank believed that Michelle was the greatest skater in the world doing what she was doing, so why change? But Michelle wanted to increase the technical content of her programs. Which she did, attempting two triple/triple combinations at Skate Canada a week after her split with Frank (with unfortunate results).
Huh? She didn't do GPS in 98-99 and
if she did a lot of comps, they were all fluff with exhibition type programs. World Pros is the only one where she did Arianne, and she had no real competiton from either side (Kristi, Maria, etc...) She did skate great there, but I'm not getting too impressed by her slam dunking over-the-hill Oksana and Nicole.

As for Frank, your whole comment needs to be pepppered with bold 'IMHO"s as that is exactly what it is. No proof, no supstance, just a wild theory grabbed out of no where.

There is equal "proof" the the exact oposite is true, and many talk of Frank's suposid impatience with MK and her growing disinterest and lack of focus.

Personally, I don't know which is more true. Probably niether.

But I will say one thing: People love to lay blame at Frank and Lori's door, but 3 years now without them and she hasn't improved on any of her "faults". Something to think about.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Problem with MK is that she knew that she was not getting the gold because of the technical and she never did anything about it despite changing coaches Hence my observation that her best competitive days are behind her. (Sorry, I left out the competitive word.)

Irina, whom I never found to be a beautiful skater was an excellent competitive skater. However, because of her illness, and her emphasis on getting back her high degree of technical prowess, she has faltered even more on the artistic side. Her overly busy routines look more like a gymnist's floor work. Just my take on Irina.

Yukina Ota is a beautiful skater.More to my liking than any of the newcomers. Let's see if she makes the team.
Cynthia Phaneuf similarly with YO. I want to see them skate simply for the pure beauty of skating.

And yes, Mai, Kimmie, and Katy are at the age for gold in Torino if the judges want to keep the gold for promising but not yet mature skaters. They've done it in the past three Olys. Just my early take on the future of competitive figure skating. Of course, it is subject to change by March 2006. :)

Joe
 

Linny

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Technical Content

Perhaps the stress fracture that Michelle suffered a while back was taken as an early warning. Maybe she doesn't want to pound herself to the point of permanent pain. Perhaps she's invested her earnings and only continues skating because she loves to skate. Methinks her last USA Nationals performance could not have been improved by adding technical content or by paying her more.
Linny
 

euterpe

Medalist
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Joesitz:

"And yes, Mai, Kimmie, and Katy are at the age for gold in Torino if the judges want to keep the gold for promising but not yet mature skaters. They've done it in the past three Olys. "

In the past 3 Olympics and the competitions leading up to them, the current age rules did not apply (Sarah was grandfathered). Oksana won silver in two Europeans and won World gold before she won the OGM. Tara skated in two Worlds, was GPF champion, and was World champion the year before her OGM. Sarah skated in THREE Worlds and multiple Senior GP events, and won World bronze and GPF bronze the year before her OGM, as well as a GPF bronze again in her Olympic season. All three had a record of high achievement in Senior international events well before they skated at the Olympics.

Kimmie and Katy won't be eligible to skate at Worlds until 2006, and can't even do Senior GP events until the fall of 2005. Mai is old enough to skate in the Senior GP this season and at Senior Worlds this year, but she apparently will continue to skate in the JGP this season and is very unlikely to make the 2005 Senior World Team.

It's extremely unlikely that skaters making their first appearances at Senior competitions in the Olympic year will immediately zoom to the top of the Olympic podium. It has never happened before and is unlikely to happen in 2006.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I'm still kind of perplex that Michelle still doesn't know what she wants to do even for this season after being assign to 2 gr prix competitions. I understand her not confirming for the whole 06 season. I just think she has more to give artistically and maybe a little on the tech side but her problem is her mind. She's not focus enough and if her mind isn't on skating then maybe she should move on. I know I will be so sad if she moves on but I kind of don't like seeing her waver so much.
 

diver chick

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 18, 2003
More than anything I would love to see these skaters do well this season.

Irina has always been a favourite of mine, although Joesitz I do agree that her programs are overly busy and distracting. IMO Irinas best program was her Apassionata SP from a couple of seasons ago, and possibly her Phantom on Ice programs of the 1999/2000 season, which suited her personality and level of maturity at that point in her career.

As for Michelle - I have never been a fan but I have always admired her ability and appreciated her longevity. Michelle may well only be 23 but she has been on the World stage for rather a long time and this makes it difficult for her to come up with something different and attention grabbing. For the last couple of seasons with her I have kind of started to feel like, same program, different music and it has all seemed like effort for her to be there. I think she would benefit greatly from a total change of direction. Maybe it would help her with what seems to be a lack of focus and enthusiasm and bring back some of the sincerity to her skating. The knock on effect of that would be the judges and audience seeing a new side to her and if anyone has the talent to pull off a change like that it would be her.

Just my two cents ;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Linny said:
Perhaps the stress fracture that Michelle suffered a while back was taken as an early warning. Maybe she doesn't want to pound herself to the point of permanent pain. Perhaps she's invested her earnings and only continues skating because she loves to skate. Methinks her last USA Nationals performance could not have been improved by adding technical content or by paying her more.
Linny
Great post Linny. I don't know whether the pain/injury possibility weighs on her mind, but IMHO (LOL) she is indeed doing exactly as she pleases, skating for the love of it. In the recent article in Women's Fitness magazine she says that she can't go skiing as she would like to, and she doesn't do tricks when she rollerblades on the beach, because of the risk of injury.

IMHO she has reached an age, a level of maturity, and a point in her career where another few medals and trophies do not mean as much to her as they did when she was younger. I think programs like The Feeling Begins (SP) and Fallin' (exhibition) represent Michelle expressing her own artistic ideas, without worrying too much about what judges, etc., might think.

Michelle is like the story they tell about Tallulah Bankhead. A younger actress thought that she should get top billing over Ms. Bankhead. TB reportedly replied, "Dahling, I can upstage you without even being on stage."

So when Bankhead exited the next scene, she put down a glass of wine balanced precariously on the very edge of a table. The audience spent the whole next scene (the ingenue's big scene) watching the glass, to see whether it would fall on not.

Mathman
 

skatingfan5

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
lavender said:
I'm still kind of perplex that Michelle still doesn't know what she wants to do even for this season after being assign to 2 gr prix competitions. I understand her not confirming for the whole 06 season. I just think she has more to give artistically and maybe a little on the tech side but her problem is her mind. She's not focus enough and if her mind isn't on skating then maybe she should move on.
Huh?!? Where are people getting this "Michelle still doesn't know what she want to do for this season"? I have seen nothing to support this -- quite the contrary, in fact. Does anyone here think that she is NOT planning on competing in the GP events this fall? If so, what leads you to believe that? That's what has me perplexed -- this viewpoint of people posting here.
 

Yazmeen

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
fan5: I think assumptions are being made because, well, Michelle ain't talking and no-one has any reports on her skating. I think Michelle has learned in the past few years to lay low and not contribute to any fan frenzy about what music she's using, what jumps she's doing, etc. I think Michelle is getting ready to gear up for the season--IN PRIVATE!!!! :p
 

Ogre Mage

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Predictions

Irina: She has a lot of willpower and ability but she is battling a chronic debilitating illness. She can't recapture the same form we saw 2000-02. I could see Irina finishing in the Top 5 at Worlds/GPF, possibly even medaling again. But I don't see her winning.

Michelle: After pounding her body for many long years, she has assudiously guarded herself against injury so I can forgive the lack of a 3/3. However, she repeated her classic TFB to lesser effect this year (the same mistake she made with Rach) and Tosca was a thinly disguised recycling of Aranjuez with too many moves that didn't fit the music. Her textbook technique is probably enough to get her on the podium, but she will need more to continue to challenge for gold. I fully believe she can adapt to CoP.

Sasha: From her wins at Marshalls, Campbells and house-cleaning on the GP circuit, we know she has the goods in full force. But when it comes to the big events she melts like ice cream in July. However, she seems to be making strides under Wagner. I don't think Sasha will ever fully overcome her nerves enough to be a consistent champion. But one of these days, she will have a perfect skate in a major event. It could happen anytime.

Shizuka: In one week, Shizuka went from dark horse to The One To Beat. How will she handle the pressure? I believe she has what it takes to consistently challenge for the podium. Barring injury, more Worlds medals are in her future (not necessarily gold).

Miki: How long can her body take the pounding of 3/3s and quads? Can she improve in other ways? Her presentation at this point is nothing to write home about. I think at heart she is an Ito-type, not an artist. Because of her jump arsenal and good basics she can't be ignored. Like Sasha I think she will have a perfect skate in a big event -- once.

Carolina: Her jumps and basics are great but her presentation is of a junior skater. Given the marks she received in Dortmund in spite of the many errors, I think she has the potential to medal or even win Worlds and Torino. Whether those wins will be deserved remains to be seen.

Fumie: The competition has come on strong and I don't see her raising her game a notch. She did win the GPF but with Michelle back in the mix a repeat is unlikely. I could see another World or Olympic Bronze in her future, but she will not improve on her current high watermark.
 

Kwanisqueen81

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
In defence of Kwan

I posted this in another thread, I think it will add to the discourse here vis-a-vis Michelle:

Kwan:
The Kween needs to re-invent herself again, and I have confidance she, with Rafeel's help will do so. She has been at or near the top of the elite international skating scene for a decade so trust me she knows how to adapt!!. Futher more I really feel that this season is not about "Winning another Skater America, Skate Canada, GPF titles", they would be nice but I don't think she cares...been there done that. I think she really cares about 2006 olympics. Everything else is pratice. Michelle needs to play up *her* strenghts while minimizing her weakness. She needs more choreogrphy in her programs. More sweet in-betweens!!! I am not convinced she *NEEDS* a triple-triple under COP but competing against Sasha(who I believe is unlikely to deliver 3/3s on a consistant basis) is all the more reason she should get that 3sal/3toe or dust off her 3toe/3toe. Michelle is at a point in her career that the pressure is OFF her. She is NOT the worlds champion and doesn't have that pressure to skate like one every time she takes the ice. I think that alone will bode well for her. Michelle skates her best when she thinks she is not the favoite!! All Michelle has to do really is 3 things:

1. Continue to be consistant
2. Get out of this cookie-cutter program rut (I liked Tosca and Aranjuez) and get fresh, original programs( ala maraculous Mandarin) That means keeping the explosive footwork(remember play to *YOUR* strenghs)
3. maybe a 3/3 depending on how offen the competition is landing theirs.





Just some facts to remember:
-COP is NOT 6.0!
-Michelle is scheduled for skate america and skate canada grand prix events,barring illness/injury
-Michelle is a proven consistant champion( Regning US champ, World Bronze medalist)



Any talk about Michelle being "over" is just off-season wishful thinking by fans of her competition.
 

RIskatingfan

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
People say the pressure is not on her? I'm not sure I bite that and I don't know if she feels like that either, at least for the next season.

She has been on the top for many years, so she is always expected to skate well and win. When that doesn't happen, people debate, people criticize, people ask why. We talk about the Olympics in the internet and everyone mentions her, even if for the simple fact that it's going to be her third time wanting that gold medal and it's debated endlessly whether it's possible or not. She appears on covers magazines, she obviously has a huge fan base that applaud her and follow her to the events... How can you say she doesn't have pressure? She ALWAYS has some pressure on her. Maybe it's not the sort of pressure that Sasha has (skate 3 clean programs and win a major title) or Shizuka has (you're World champion, show it wasn't a one-hit-wonder). But there's always the pressure of being Michelle Kwan and having to skate well and fight for the top spot. And as long as she stays on the competitve scene it will always be like that, she will always be a skater to beat. And whie it stays like that, there IS pressure.

ETA: Even the majority of her fans is anxious to see if she is going to bring new and different programs next season and her work with Rafael will show or not. There's a major expectation for next season, regarding her "reinventing" herself, complex programs for CoP... How is this not pressure? Not only it comes from critics, but from her fans as well!
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It's hard to say what Michelle feels about the whole "pressure" thing. I can't see her losing much sleep over Internet chatter.

MM
 

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I have never been a big Irina fan but the way she has come fighting back from this disease has earned my respect and admiration. A well rested and trained Irina and Michelle will be hard to beat.
 
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