Russian pairs disaster in Boston- why? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Russian pairs disaster in Boston- why?

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Pairs are pairs, they still do well. But I am really surprised by their abysmal performances in dances. I still cannot believe how a country with such a strong tradition, a country that used to dominate the discipline, now is practically non-existent.
What is going on in that federation???
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Pairs are pairs, they still do well. But I am really surprised by their abysmal performances in dances. I still cannot believe how a country with such a strong tradition, a country that used to dominate the discipline, now is practically non-existent.
What is going on in that federation???

The answer is in your post. While Russia does have a great tradition its dumb of them to still be training in that way. Their traditional ways are dead and they need to adopt the new ways. Equal partnerships of equal talent. Taller men shorter women, total adoption of IJS in dance, its technical first- artistic second of not artistically irrelevent.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I am not an expert and i can have only a subjective opinion.
I prefered the programs of the russian and the chinese pairs and i was not impressed at all by the canadian's artistic perforformace that took the first place.
I wonder if one can have conspiracy theories here, that they underestimated the russians and overestimated the Americans because they were skating In America?

V/t won big in Canada in 2013 so maybe its not geography just simply judges giving another country the pairs title for 2018. And while russian pairs are not totally completely technically deficient but seem so when other teams are on.
 
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Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Just signing under what everybody else said.

1. T/M did their best
2. S/K - he looked injured
3. V/T - their goal this season was worlds, and they looked kinda not too happy to perform at worlds.
I guess they couldnt WD because S/K situation wasn't clear and T/M and A/R would not be able to keep 3 spots.

I think you mean Euro's.

I've been thinking about the whole 'not interested/motivated in going to Worlds' story with Trankov (Volosozhar is along for the ride) the more disgusted I get by it.

If we are going to talk 'conspiracy theory' - I'll put this one out there, The biggest competition of the year and V/T don't want to go, it wasn't even a goal. V/T don't want to do quads because of the risk of injury, but they also know without increasing their technical difficulties they lose against established teams and don't want to have to face them...they were "injured" before NHK when they would have to face Duhamel/Radford, and now apparently they weren't interested in going to Worlds, where they would meet D/R???
 

Sweet Dream

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
That's not the case, though...A/R are coached by Dmitriev and B/D by Vasiliev in Moscow. And who else should they have sent? If K/S were not injured then maybe things would have been different. Stuff happens beyond anyone's control sometimes.
What I am saying is that it is absolutely wrong to let one coaching team occupy all good resources. I don't care about Vasiliev who is not qualified to coach any other pairs in the sense of morality, but Dmitriev, a former two-time Olympic Champion, should have better teams than A/R to coach. V/T's FS at Boston really made me angry, you know. It is the worst program presented by pairs Olympic Champions I have ever seen, and they even got 73+ PCS! Maxim should sometimes keep his big mouth shut when giving a post-event interview or something. If you want to be treated like the Olympic Champions by the judges, you should first skate like the Champions!
 

Macassar88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
TAT pretty much said it all in her commentary;

1. Trankov is no longer invested in training and I don't think its all about his injuries. He was never a hard worker to begin with and after Sochi he has very little motivation. Tati on the other hand has nerves of steel if she had another partner willing to work harder they would be world medalists now.

2. St/Kl are injured period. They have two interesting programs.

3. T/M are just bland, like vanilla bland. They need actual programs and some sort of actual coaching.

4. Mozer and Morozov think choreography is useless. That's about it.

While they go on deluding themselves other pairs are getting so much better. Did they see Lubov and partner? :bed:

If only Tatiana could skate with Aljona :love:
 

MaxSwagg

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
I think you mean Euro's.

I've been thinking about the whole 'not interested/motivated in going to Worlds' story with Trankov (Volosozhar is along for the ride) the more disgusted I get by it.

If we are going to talk 'conspiracy theory' - I'll put this one out there, The biggest competition of the year and V/T don't want to go, it wasn't even a goal. V/T don't want to do quads because of the risk of injury, but they also know without increasing their technical difficulties they lose against established teams and don't want to have to face them...they were "injured" before NHK when they would have to face Duhamel/Radford, and now apparently they weren't interested in going to Worlds, where they would meet D/R???

Tat and Max are afraid of no one. They have the Olympic gold and decent legacy, something D/R will never have outside of Canada. And yes, Tat was injured. They reason the stopped doing the flip to begin with years ago was because she got injured doing it. And they were doing a good quad twist before his shoulder surgery.
 

HermioneG

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
I think you mean Euro's.

I've been thinking about the whole 'not interested/motivated in going to Worlds' story with Trankov (Volosozhar is along for the ride) the more disgusted I get by it.

If we are going to talk 'conspiracy theory' - I'll put this one out there, The biggest competition of the year and V/T don't want to go, it wasn't even a goal. V/T don't want to do quads because of the risk of injury, but they also know without increasing their technical difficulties they lose against established teams and don't want to have to face them...they were "injured" before NHK when they would have to face Duhamel/Radford, and now apparently they weren't interested in going to Worlds, where they would meet D/R???
The whole season VT fight with injuries because of trying to learn quads... And yes, Tanya really got injury even before Bordeaux and made it worse during one of throws in Bordeaux. People even went to her and asked what is injured THIS time (during last 2 years she got one injury after another((( But who cares - it is easier to write that all these is fake of course)
 

Giselle

Medalist
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Is winning a medal or placing top 5 the only consideration? It's an honest question, I'm not implying anything or being sarcastic. I'd love to have seen Astakhova/Rogonov skating there. and I don't think they would have endangered the 3 Russian spots for next year. I'm American, so obviously our team wouldn't have gained anything. :bang:

No, not at all. I was just pointing out if the two teams that were injuried wouldn't have competed it would have been even more of a "disaster" (even if I don't think 4th, 5th, 6th is a disaster at all tbh). Astakhova/Rogonov get no love from the judges and I don't really understand why.

Tarasova/Morozov are in an interesting situation, because now is the time for them to evaluate their future goals and make a decision. They have the big elements but they are lacking a little something to be in the mix for medals. They still have to work on a few things on the technical side like their SBS jumps where both of them are inconsistent and they don't do a throw flip or lutz yet. But their main weakness is that they are sleep-inducing, they don't look "engaged" in their performance. And it's not only their choreagraphy's fault IMO because their SP could be interesting, like at Europeans where they actually tried to perform, it had a nice intensity.
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Country
United-States
No, not at all. I was just pointing out if the two teams that were injuried wouldn't have competed it would have been even more of a "disaster" (even if I don't think 4th, 5th, 6th is a disaster at all tbh). Astakhova/Rogonov get no love from the judges and I don't really understand why.

Tarasova/Morozov are in an interesting situation, because now is the time for them to evaluate their future goals and make a decision. They have the big elements but they are lacking a little something to be in the mix for medals. They still have to work on a few things on the technical side like their SBS jumps where both of them are inconsistent and they don't do a throw flip or lutz yet. But their main weakness is that they are sleep-inducing, they don't look "engaged" in their performance. And it's not only their choreagraphy's fault IMO because their SP could be interesting, like at Europeans where they actually tried to perform, it had a nice intensity.

I totally agree. So do you think they're "obviously a Moskvina couple" because Tamara would bring out whatever performing fire she could find in them, maybe by looking for, and finding something not so obvious to others?
 

Kittosuni

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2012
T/M -Definitely exceeded expectations. Even a bit underscored IMO especially the SP
V/T- Honestly their tech content is just too low. Even Trankov knows it. They needed to be perfect and others to commit mistake to even medal.
S/K- Too bad he is injured but Ksenia's mistakes are really surprising.

Its not a disaster result but knowing russia's pairs standard, this is just not good. This is also a wake up call for Mozer's group that PCS can't save them anymore. They need to up their tech content.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
T/M need to go to Moskvina i bet she could do wonders with them the talent is already there they just need the programs and let her figure a way to open them up and connect with the crowd. They should also be looking to do the quad twist next season there is no reason not to up the ante considering how huge their 3twist already is.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
The only Russian pair where there is any sort of case to be made for lowballing is S/K, and their PCS in the free skate had more to do with skating in the penultimate group than anything personal. It's unfortunate that skating order has this effect, but it does. V/T were scored generously throughout, especially yesterday, and T/M were beyond bland.

For the US, a 4-5-6 in pairs finish would be good. For Russia it is not, especially as their top pairs competed at Worlds unlike last year. What should be done? Well, hopefully this will make it clear that Mozer is not the answer for every pair in Moscow. V/T can retire and skate in Lambiel's shows and/or start a family, Klimov can focus on getting healthy ahead of next season (because he and Stolbova are amazing when they are on), and Tarasova/Morozov should be sent to Moskvina. They are so obviously a Moskvina pair that I don't know what they're doing skating in Mozer's group.
no excuses but i think we can safely say Russia has not been able to send their top three teams in a while - V and T, S and K and K and S. Morevoer, they certainly were not healthy. As mentioned all three teams were injured enoghthat they had to cancel various competitions. T and M are a pretty decent back up and A and R still need to find their mojo and place - but it is a huge disappointment and I swear Aliona lol has some great luck on h er side - i would have hammered their pcs - the programs are not great and he still needs to catch up in many ways. But this disaster for Russian pairs whhile a huge let down for them is not like they didn't have any team in the top ten or five. We'll see if this continues.
 

Giselle

Medalist
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
I totally agree. So do you think they're "obviously a Moskvina couple" because Tamara would bring out whatever performing fire she could find in them, maybe by looking for, and finding something not so obvious to others?

I don't know if they are "obviously a Moskvina couple". They strike me as a very "Moscow" type of skaters, very classical, lyrical and matchy matchy if it makes sense. Moskvina maybe would push them out of their confort zone too much.

Last year (I think?) they stopped working with Stanislav Morozov and switched to another coach in Nina Mozer's group because they had "disagreements" and their "characters didn’t match" whatever that means. I think they have personality but it just doesn't show up on ice...

BTW I don't think they ever really worked with Nikolai Morozov on their programs so you can't blame him lol. IIRC last year it's Maxim Trankov who choreographed their programs and this year it was the "in house" choreographer at Nina Mozer's rink Alla Kapranova.
 

Osmond4gold

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Why did none medal with strong medal worthy performamces. Not gold but silver and bronze of course.
1. Bad coaching?
2. Did they all get sick?
3. We're they all injured?
4. Was it because it was in the US.
5. Was it because of all the scandals? Did judges not want to give any russian pairs medals?

6. A culture of entitlement? (i.e. Maxim's constant criticisms for non-Russian skating, and not always involving skating skills/styles...in a word, classless).
 
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skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Country
United-States
I don't know if they are "obviously a Moskvina couple". They strike me as a very "Moscow" type of skaters, very classical, lyrical and matchy matchy if it makes sense. Moskvina maybe would push them out of their confort zone too much.

Oh, yes, it makes very much sense to me. I'm a huge fan of our USA champions Tarah Kayne and Danny O'Shea. They didn't skate their best at Worlds, unfortunately, but below is a link to their Nat. FS if you're interested. They're in that classical, lyrical, matchy matchy mode and I love that about them. I started watching figure skating because of Gordeeva/ Grinkov's skate at 1988 Olympics. Someone in the Pairs SP or FS thread last weekend said that Tat had said she spoke with Katia, who said she's a big fan of Tarah and Danny. Now, I know that's third-hand testimony, but it makes me happy. :)

Last year (I think?) they stopped working with Stanislav Morozov and switched to another coach in Nina Mozer's group because they had "disagreements" and their "characters didn’t match" whatever that means. I think they have personality but it just doesn't show up on ice...

BTW I don't think they ever really worked with Nikolai Morozov on their programs so you can't blame him lol. IIRC last year it's Maxim Trankov who choreographed their programs and this year it was the "in house" choreographer at Nina Mozer's rink Alla Kapranova.

That's all interesting. :) I also love Moskvina, and 1994 was a great match-up of Natalia/Artur and Katia/Sergei. Such an interesting contrast in styles.

Kayne/O'Shea 2016 US Nats FS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WljVhV8YrFk
 
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Mista Ekko

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 9, 2009
I wouldn't go as far as disaster,

Duhamel\Radford and Sui\Han are powerhouses at the moment so getting a medal is difficult to begin with,

Stolbova\Klimov were probably good enough for Bronze here but the Judges with the other Bronze worthy option,

Was it the group difference? Maybe
 

rosy14

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 2, 2016
TAT pretty much said it all in her commentary;

1. Trankov is no longer invested in training and I don't think its all about his injuries. He was never a hard worker to begin with and after Sochi he has very little motivation. Tati on the other hand has nerves of steel if she had another partner willing to work harder they would be world medalists now.

2. St/Kl are injured period. They have two interesting programs.

3. T/M are just bland, like vanilla bland. They need actual programs and some sort of actual coaching.

4. Mozer and Morozov think choreography is useless. That's about it.

While they go on deluding themselves other pairs are getting so much better. Did they see Lubov and partner? :bed:

Ljubov and Moskovic were very good at Worlds, but disastrous in all the other competitions. If Ljubova would have been so good, she'd have remained in Russia.
S/K were clearly underscored, as were nearly all the Russian skaters, except Medvedeva.The Canadian skated very, very well, but their programme was less interesting as choreography and music than last year. I like them, above all Eric, Meagan is sometimes too muasculine and rough, and have only 2expression, serious and laughing.
Russians have been plagued by injuries, trying to keep apace with higher technical difficulties. They don't need quads to capture the interest of the public and judges, because they know how to perform and have generally better skating qualities than the others. But Kavaguti got seriuosly injured, no Europeans, no Worlds for her and Smirnov ( with two very beautiful programmes), S/K both injured, V/T found the wonderful Chines and Canadians on their way, and who'd have got higher PCS in the SP.. Savchenko/ Massot's third place was a premium for their problems in getting
Massot released by the French Federation. However they skate together since Spring 2014, albeit in shows.
 
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