Skating daughter always places last

Hi everyone,

I need some help/wisdom. My daughter is 14 and at no-test level. She started late, age 11, but fell in love with skating. She skates with a great group of supportive girls who are positive influences. We love her coach and she mainly does showcase events and her coach does mini production groups which is my daughter's favorite.
The problem is she continues to place last in her solo events. Last year we chalked it up to her first year competing USFSA and a learning experience, she was such a trooper about it. Yesterday was her first comp of the season and she placed 7/8 and 3/3 for her solos. She (and I) were so upset. We didn't expect first, but a middle placement would've been realistic and satisfying. The 3/3 really upset me because given the competitors it really seemed unfair. She worked really hard, her programs were clean and she had way more facial use than the others (it being showcase and all). To rub more salt in the wound the other two girls were much younger, so she felt embarrassed.
Her coach and the other moms were shocked and thought she did amazing.
Anyhow, my dilemma is when do you know to pull back? The hours practicing and giving up some social events plus the cost and time on my part, to feel like you had an awesome skate, only to have someone else say you were the worst?
To be on the mini-prod team she has to keep up and acquire more skills including an axel. I'm sure she doesn't want to stop that, but is it worth it to keep competing? Have any of you gone through this and seen some success on the other end? Any thought, wisdom, advice is greatly appreciated.

Weclome Joeyb72,

I feel your concern in your post.

I really began my 20+ years of skating at age 19. I know the lows of placing near last or last, and the highs of placing in the top 3, even first.
And same thing – when I placed low, others would tell me how well I skated and that I should not have placed low.

First off, everyone in that competition probably "worked hard.” Competitions are not judged on that.
If everyone did the same moves then the judges will look for quality.

Second, another facet that I see overlooked A LOT, is presentation. Once I started working on my presentation – looking at the judges and the audience, showing them I was very proud of my skating, using my arms to showcase a move – I found I started placing consistently higher.
How was the presentation of the other skaters in her group?

Even if your daughter never places high, skating mirrors life.
She will know how to deal with the disappointment of not getting a job she wants or a promotion.
She will learn to stick with a goal instead of easily quitting.
And if she is in with a supportive group of friends, well – that keeps her off the street (as I say) and keeps her out of trouble and that is worth more than money or a high placement in my opinion.

As long as she enjoys her skating, she should stick with it. She'll let you know when she's had enough.

To Joeyb72:
Are you able to see the breakdowns of the judges' scores? There might be clues there as to whether there are issues she can correct.

Really, in the case of the 3 out of 3, there are two possibilities:
1. She did a nice job, but the other two were better. In such a small group, someone has to be "worst," even if all are good.
2. Age is not supposed to be a factor, but in competitions like these, there indeed are judges who "encourage" the much-younger ones.

I am not a parent, but I am friends with parents who have faced this issue with daughters in skating and gymnastics. As with you, they seemed to hit this issue at about age 14, also due to social and cost issues, and also with starting to think about the best use of time for college prep. For them, it came down to having a serious talk with the child about happiness and future expectations. In all cases, the girls said they felt an obligation to continue (because their parents already had spent so much) and were relieved when given the choice to transition to a different path.

The great thing about skating (as opposed to, say, gymnastics) is that one's skills can be developed throughout one's lifetime, at one's own pace. My advice for your daughter is to set reasonable goals for HERSELF and to concentrate on the skills she needs for the performance groups that she enjoys. For now, stop competing (especially against much-younger girls); not worth the time and emotional stress. Who knows? By the time she is 18 or 21 or 31 (and beyond), she might find herself enjoying success in college or adult competition.

Something else to consider: A lifelong involvement in skating does not have to be all about competing. It's not too early for her to start getting training as a judge or tech specialist, or to become active in a USFSA club. There is more than one path to Nationals & Olympics!

We have daughters of about the same age. It is really hard because they have so many areas of interests and you wonder, should I have them quit so there is more energy for something else where they might be successful.

I'd find out what her skating goals in 2 years are and have her coach ask if they are reasonable doing what she is doing right now.

When my daughter was wanting to quit, I showed her how she is almost done with testing and that in two years she could be a double gold medalist with usfs.

Being close to a visible finishline is motivating to keep her interested in her daily early morning practices.

I am not reading this, am I?

Parent and daughter wanting to quit because of placement in comps?

Oh, this world where parents think they should make it so their kids are never disappointed...

If the only thing you want is to place in a competition then why pour money into skating?

But that isnt true...

1 she loves skating
2 she has a good group of friends
3 she enjoys performing
4 she likes working with her coach
5 she is active

Has she tried synchro? There are levels for all skills. She won't need an axel. She would need to focus on moves in the field and test.

I fully get why you are discouraged! Last year my daughter skated all season and never got ANTHING! I think it was harder on me then her. I just felt she had worked so hard but she was getting no positives signs associated with all her hard work. Mid-season I remember commenting to one parent that I would love her to get one 4th place finish this season to show for all her work - the mother commented that if I wanted medals, then I was in the wrong sport. I don't think the parent understood my frustration- I kinda equate it to a raise at work - if you work hard, you expect to get something. But if you get no raise (0%), you start to question why you worked so hard. Since then I have met several other parents that had a season like my daughter's last year and they all understood completely where I was coming from. fyi - The best she finished last year was 5th in her Juvenile group of 22 at Regionals; again no medal.

The no-test level is really hard since all the skaters are really at the same level. Unless one skater is clearly above the rest skill-wise, then placements tend to be relatively random. As a 6.0 parent, my advice is you really need to focus on your daughter's overall "package." How is her hair and dress compared to the rest of the skaters? How is the choreography - if there is a blip to the music, does your daughter's program have a cute little hand gesture to accentuate that blimp? What I learned the hard way is all this factors in when skating no-test. I remember watching one competition and realizing that my daughter was the best skater but she did not have the best package - that girl in yellow clearly had the best package; well, the girl in yellow was 1st and my daughter got 2nd.

Also, look at the scoring. The way 6.0 works, the overall rank is based on the "majority" of the scores. So if there are 5 judges, and skater 1 gets 1,1,4,3,3 and skater 2 sets 2,2,2,4,4 then skater 2 gets first and skater 1 gets second. The reason is skater 1 had the majority of "3 or higher" while skater 2 had the majority of "2or greater." I remember one competition where there were 10 girls; my daughter got last even though none of the judges placed her lower than 7 - try explaining that to a 9-year old.

Some kids seem to rack up medals but not my daughter. She has been skating since she was 3 and entered her first competition at 5. In all those years, getting any medal is a really big deal since has gotten so few. And she has only won 1 first place one (and there were only 2 skaters competing). Even in that event (pre-juv), the scoring was strange. To my eye, she skated a clean program. Her competitor fell 3 times. My daughter was scored 1,1,1,2,2 and the other girl was scored 2,2,2,1,1. Hugh??

My point, my daughter's passion is skating. Whenever she gets on the ice, she gets a big smile on her face. Even strangers comment will comment to us how happy she looks on the ice. I am hoping that at one point, the tide will turn and all her hard work will be rewarded. Until then, we continue.

I thinkLloopy had a good idea. Does your rink have a synchro team at your daughters' age and skill level? (If not, start one!)

The great thing about syncro is that you are part of a team with all of your friends. In single's competition sometimes it seems like everyone is your enemy.

And synchro is a sport she can continue in college, too, in some schools. If she likes performance groups, synchro might be ideal for her!

Thanks for the responses. I'm not afraid of her being disappointed, believe me she getting REALLY good at that, it's not about medals or winning, and she doesn't want to quit. It's about maybe refocusing and maybe instead of doing all of these expensive competitions, where it is so subjective, then maybe focusing on testing and/or just the group, etc. The comps are befuddling because she definitely has the presentation (hair, dress, smile, facial expressions, arm movements, etc) and she hit all of her elements. In fact one girl who placed higher missed a jump and didn't crack a smile, so who the heck knows? I just know that she is an older, lower level skater, who loves her coach and friends. The previous poster is right it keeps her off the streets (especially as a teen) and its great for her health. She doesn't like synchro so that's not an option. I think just sitting down and determining what comps and tests are worth the cost and time/effort and going into those comps with personal goals and a fun day with her friends and also maybe ignoring the results! Lol

Thank you so much!

concorde said:

I fully get why you are discouraged! Last year my daughter skated all season and never got ANTHING! I think it was harder on me then her. I just felt she had worked so hard but she was getting no positives signs associated with all her hard work. Mid-season I remember commenting to one parent that I would love her to get one 4th place finish this season to show for all her work - the mother commented that if I wanted medals, then I was in the wrong sport. I don't think the parent understood my frustration- I kinda equate it to a raise at work - if you work hard, you expect to get something. But if you get no raise (0%), you start to question why you worked so hard. Since then I have met several other parents that had a season like my daughter's last year and they all understood completely where I was coming from. fyi - The best she finished last year was 5th in her Juvenile group of 22 at Regionals; again no medal.

The no-test level is really hard since all the skaters are really at the same level. Unless one skater is clearly above the rest skill-wise, then placements tend to be relatively random. As a 6.0 parent, my advice is you really need to focus on your daughter's overall "package." How is her hair and dress compared to the rest of the skaters? How is the choreography - if there is a blip to the music, does your daughter's program have a cute little hand gesture to accentuate that blimp? What I learned the hard way is all this factors in when skating no-test. I remember watching one competition and realizing that my daughter was the best skater but she did not have the best package - that girl in yellow clearly had the best package; well, the girl in yellow was 1st and my daughter got 2nd.

Also, look at the scoring. The way 6.0 works, the overall rank is based on the "majority" of the scores. So if there are 5 judges, and skater 1 gets 1,1,4,3,3 and skater 2 sets 2,2,2,4,4 then skater 2 gets first and skater 1 gets second. The reason is skater 1 had the majority of "3 or higher" while skater 2 had the majority of "2or greater." I remember one competition where there were 10 girls; my daughter got last even though none of the judges placed her lower than 7 - try explaining that to a 9-year old.

Some kids seem to rack up medals but not my daughter. She has been skating since she was 3 and entered her first competition at 5. In all those years, getting any medal is a really big deal since has gotten so few. And she has only won 1 first place one (and there were only 2 skaters competing). Even in that event (pre-juv), the scoring was strange. To my eye, she skated a clean program. Her competitor fell 3 times. My daughter was scored 1,1,1,2,2 and the other girl was scored 2,2,2,1,1. Hugh??

My point, my daughter's passion is skating. Whenever she gets on the ice, she gets a big smile on her face. Even strangers comment will comment to us how happy she looks on the ice. I am hoping that at one point, the tide will turn and all her hard work will be rewarded. Until then, we continue.

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Such a thoughtful post! Thank you for sharing your experiences here with us.

Quite a few of my friends are coaches and one thing you can take from figure skating is a pretty good job while in college. I know a few coaches who spend a good portion of time during private lessons just teaching skaters how to become instructors.

Mathman said:

The great thing about syncro is that you are part of a team with all of your friends. In single's competition sometimes it seems like everyone is your enemy.

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Unless you are a person who does not have/require many friends and has none skating, in which case a synchro team full of cliquey girls would be very much the camp of the enemy.

I loathe that "synchro!" is so often the first suggestion. Maybe she should just harden up, realise she can't win everything and somebody has to come last, read her protocols, and get on with the business of improving her skating.

Signed,

I've been doing this competing gig for five years and have yet to finish any higher than second-last.

karne said:

Maybe she should just harden up, realise she can't win everything and somebody has to come last, read her protocols, and get on with the business of improving her skating.

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In the US, events lower than juvenile are judged by 6.0, so all the protocols will tell you is how each judge ranked you relative to the other skaters in the event. There is no specific feedback about the actual skating.

So we can take comfort if some judges ranked us higher than the majority, but that's about the best to be gotten from the protocols when there are mixed ordinals. If all the judges put you last, there isn't even that.

I've been doing this competing gig for five years and have yet to finish any higher than second-last.

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I skated for a few years as a young teenager, but in those days there were no opportunities to compete if you were over 13 and under intermediate level. So I got bored and quit. I do wish I'd gotten my skills a bit further when my body was younger.

I learned to compete as an adult. For years I always finished last or next-to-last in freestyle competitions. (I did manage to medal and sometimes win in spin events.) Even the one time I got a gold medal for freestyle, I was still next to last (there were only two skaters in the event).

Eventually I got more confident about performing and managed to earn a few pewter medals in freestyle, ahead of two to four other adults. That was my triumph before I had to stop jumping.


For the original poster:
Showcase events often come down to judges' personal preferences. And it might be better to think of them as an opportunity to perform for audiences more than as a competition. Enter often enough and skate well often enough, sometimes you'll place better than others.

But you and your daughter need to decide which aspects of skating, including competing, are rewarding enough in themselves, since you can't control who else enters the event or what judges choose to reward.

My suggestion for syncho was because she is 14 with no axel competing no test. She needs an axel to move up in her performance group (per mom) and it takes a long time to get an axel. I think average is 18 months.

It can be motivating to pass moves tests and qualify on a competition synchro team. My daughter did it and had a great team and enjoyed travel, girls, coaches and competing. She said while she doesn't do it now that it would be fun in college.

She doesn't like synchro so it isn't an option for her.

One thing to consider is that competing takes away time from learning new skills and testing. If resources of time are limited, competing less can give you more time for getting an axel.

joeyb72 said:

The comps are befuddling because she definitely has the presentation (hair, dress, smile, facial expressions, arm movements, etc) and she hit all of her elements. In fact one girl who placed higher missed a jump and didn't crack a smile, so who the heck knows?

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The 6.0 system is like that. I know of one competition where 2 skaters wore red dresses - one fell a bunch of times and the other skated a clean program. Well - the one that fell a bunch of times got first and the girl with the clean program got last. We always assumed that the judges got the two red dress skater confused. fyi - the happened to one of my daughter's friends.

I once heard some judges talking and they commented all the skaters in a group were the same. For the final placement, they just used the skating order as the final placement order.

For those reasons, I agree that the 6.0 system is horrible. I cannot say that things will get better but there are a lot of other parents out there with feelings similar to yours. I was so happy when my daughter moved to IJU since then you get the protocols which tell you what needs improvement. Regardless of the problems associated with IJU, it is much better than 6.0

While you have an daughter at the older end of the spectrum, mine has always been on the younger end of the spectrum. I had always assumed that judges were extra critical on the younger girls since "they have plenty of time." But I guess that is not true. Good luck and I fully understand.

Is the no-test level part of the Well-Balanced program stream, or the Test track stream? Maybe she might find it easier to skate at the pre preliminary test track stream? With Well-Balanced there aren't many restrictions on what can be done in a skater's program, so you often see skaters competing in a level lower than where they should be, and the skaters who actually belong in this level can get discouraged by getting beaten all the time.

The Test track stream has restrictions on what the skaters can do in their programs.

I totally understand how tough it must feel to watch your daughter place last in competitions, but I agree with all the other folks here that if she loves it and is finding valuable friendships in the sport, that's really wonderful. I can only speak to my own competitive experience, but there were plenty of years where I'd rather be anywhere else than skating (and then I did just that). Pardon the new age-iness, but skating with joy and intention is just as important as the technical elements.

I think it's a good suggestion to encourage her to proceed with the testing; it's a great way to set some practical goals that go beyond the world of competition. (Even if you do venture into that arena, "winning isn't everything" is a valuable life lesson!)

And if synchro isn't her bag, there's pairs, ice dancing, figures, ice theater, etc. Rather than feeling frustrated, consider this a prime moment to explore all the opportunities, that way planning any future course of action is going to be satisfying to you both.

Input from a coach and non dad

I hope my feedback is allowed, even if I am not a dad and not coaching skaters.

As someone who is working with young girls in soccer, I do know how hard it can be for parents to be critical and open minded, if it´s about their kids. You can compare this with the supermarket that you go to with your child. If it want´s candy then it will get candy, even if it might have a negative impact on it, after all parents love their kids and they only see the good and want them to smile.

You won´t believe how often I had conversations with parents, who just didn´t want to understand why their kid was benched, or why I did what I did regarding, tactics, playtime and co. If I would have a kid, I would probably be the same and I would look for reasons, but those are always the others and never my kids wrongs.

Because of this situation, it is so important to have a third opinion, an opinion which does not come from family and friends, but those who are more neutral and actually, just introduced to your kid. That´s by the way, also the reason why I do work with older players or coaches, they come once in a while and check and give their feedback and you won´t believe this, but at times you can become blind as you see things every day and someday, you actually believe that what you see, is great and perfect.
So this would be my first advice, get a third opinion, some coach maybe, a choreographer, someone who does not know your daughter, who will see her for the first time and then give a judgment.

Another aspect for young kids is the mental aspect. Kids and this is my personal philosophy, shouldn't be doing sports for fame and money, but because it is fun for them. Even if you come last, you are a winner, as having the ability to skate, play soccer or tennis, is a victory. You can do what you like to do, what is fun for you and what is a better hobby or job, than something that you actually like doing? Therefore, my second advice is to take away the pressure, don´t look at the results, just let her skate, let her be a figure skater.
Young kids, tend to load a lot of weight onto their tiny shoulders and it is the job of a coach or the parents to lift that weight, let them know, they are special and a lost skate is never the end of the world. Remember, how young you are, remember that you will have hundreds of skates or competitions in your life, so why waste your time with negativity and grief about one competition. When we have bad results in our team, we talk about it and those who enter the room with tears, will leave them with at least a smile and a positive thought and this I would advice you to try with your daughter. You should never let yourself into that mindset, of everyone is evil and now my daughter and I we pity each other, that would be the wrong way to do it. Be positive, point out the good things, as you said, the expression she had and the feel for music, let her know about these things and don´t argue about the judges.

What´s also important is realizing that no matter what you do in life, there will be someone who is better in it and more loved. I did lot´s of DJ competitions when I was young and guess what. I did not win a single competition and still, I was living my dream at Ibiza, years later. As an athlete, I was battling someone who always got the praise, who always was more loved by the coaches and guess what, the day when I beat him, was most likely one of the most intense in my young career as an athlete. I did not win a gold medal at the Olympics, but I did prove something and that was how I was the better athlete on that day and to have people congratulate you, even if they never liked or believed in you, is just priceless.

Life can take weird paths at times and you never know what the future will bring. You will meet people who tell you, that you suck (which is putting you on last in a competition) and then, there will be those who actually love you from the first moment on and give you a boost in confidence and support. Therefore, my third advice is to just not let it get to your heart. No matter, how often you are put last or third or second by judges, keep working and fighting, as there will be the day, when you will be the winner and even if you don´t win by going first, you could win by being discovered for an ice show, for an apprenticeship or the ability to become a coach.

Life doesn´t always go as we want it, I did so many different things in life and how often was I called out for it. Just don´t let it get to you, keep fighting and doing what you love, even if the situation might look hopeless for you. I never thought I could go to figure skating comps after I was declined by the ÓC´s in my first year, after all its just a hobby and who cared about what I had to say, right? I was a nobody, people didn´t know me and maybe thought I am some kind of strange guy, so why let me in? Now, years later I go to about 5-6 every year, write columns in a sport, that I never did myself and often gave me a headache about things that I just have to accept for now and the financial problems that I face every season. If you give up, then you have lost, if you don´t give up, then you can never lose in my opinion.
Set yourself a realistic goal, for instance not coming last, she doesn´t skate to points I believe, but scoring a specific amount of points could be another, or to learn a new element, skate to a specific type of music, there are many goals in life that can lead and motivate us.

Skaters who start skating, don´t look at world titles at first either, 99% will never even go to Worlds. So they start learning elements, they improve those elements, then they try to advance to a higher skating group, maybe try to have a professional coach, maybe be accepted at some ice school... Start with little steps, you can not conquer the world in an instant. And this is my final advice, take things slowly. Achieving goals, takes time and we have to work hard for it and please, never believe, that someone doesn´t work as hard as you do, as every athlete put´s many hours into his or her sport, just that it might look more effortless at some and talent helps, but talent alone will never win anything.

Look at Anna and Ashley at worlds, hardly anyone put a dime on them, but they fought hard and were rewarded and I see similar happen to Gracie some day and hey our best examples for the Ladies, Nicole and Niki. These kids when I saw the first, were not world material and now, both did qualify for worlds and did skate both programs! You can learn so much from those skaters that I just mentioned, it´s a hard job to be an athlete, for everyone out there.

I wish your daughter and you, the best of luck and a strong will. :thumbsup:

I saw this option on our last registration and I didn't know what it was. I will ask her coach about it. The girl who won on of the categories didn't do an axel, as its not allowed, but then magically had one during the exhibition of the same program. I would think judges could tell this is going on, but maybe its too hard to prove.