I appreciate you are in a similar situation. Believe me, she has placed last or next to last for about 12 competitions now, so she is plenty tough. Unfortunately there are no breakdowns from the judges. It would really help so much to know those kinds of things.
Skating daughter always places last
- Thread starter joeyb72
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I tell my daughter to not think about what other skaters do, she needs to focus on herself. SOme kids have cautious coaches. They don't let their skater take a test until they feel it will be a solid pass. With young skaters, they don't take move to pre-pre until they have a solid, clean, reliable axel. They might have an axle but it would not pass in a competition or would be scored lowly. This is because prepre can be very competitive. So it is up to the coach to decide when to move up. There is really nothing to "prove", it's 6.0 and the judges how they judge and coaches coach how they see fit to coach.
One of the things to consider about your own skater is speed. Taller, older girls often look slower on the ice, even if they are at the speed of smaller younger girls. When my daughter was in this spot, her coach would chase her on the ice yelling at her to go faster while she did her program. She said it was a little scary but also fun and she got over the thinking she was fast and just got faster. Even if the music is slow, they need to have quick ice coverage. It's the power of each stroke. My daughter never picks slow music because she is musical and will end up at the music tempo instead of hitting her mark. It takes a lot of skill (or in head counting) to skate fast to slow music.
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If she didn't do an axel in your daughter's event, then it wasn't her axel that impressed the judges; it was other things, such as her skating skills, interpretation, and the quality of her spins and single jumps. If the exhibition wasn't judged, then she broke no rules by throwing an axel in for the exhibition.
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I'm sorry to hear about your discouragement. Skating can be very satisfying yet very frustrating. If she really loves skating, then she should stick with it.
I started "late" as a teen and didn't win my first showcase (out of three people) for about 4 years. So just keep trying. Everyone disagrees with the judges sometimes. Even high level skaters.
Maybe you can try getting a different coach on a supplemental basis just to get some extra tips on performance improvement.
I have heard this too which is so disheartening. A coach told me one judge only looked up for 10 seconds of his student's program, and that in larger groups they sometimes randomize the placement order
I started "late" as a teen and didn't win my first showcase (out of three people) for about 4 years. So just keep trying. Everyone disagrees with the judges sometimes. Even high level skaters.
Maybe you can try getting a different coach on a supplemental basis just to get some extra tips on performance improvement.
I have heard this too which is so disheartening. A coach told me one judge only looked up for 10 seconds of his student's program, and that in larger groups they sometimes randomize the placement order
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I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if a child/young teen should quit for lack of success. It can be demoralizing, even for an adult. But it should be up to the child. Is she wants to continue, her mother should support her.
Just wanted to report back. Last year we switched coach and that coach really worked on technique but more importantly she also gave my daughter more input in her program. This seemed to have worked since in her first 2 competitions, she has come home with a metal from both (group size of ~18 girls each). The programs have not been clean BUT she is now moving in the right direction. And most importantly, my daughter remains passionate about skating.
All her hard work finally seems to be showing.
I don't think anyone really achieves anything beyond personal achievement in figure skating beyond a very select/elite few. Personal achievement is what you make of it. It's when you see that skater from a non-powerhouse country look happy at their score in the kiss & cry, because it was a personal best score even if it still put them in 23rd place.
I read someone's comment about presentation, that could be why the other girls were placed ahead of her. It could also be that you are totally correct and your daughter was clearly better than one of them. I have heard and seen this happen multiple times, at these lower levels where they rank the skaters. I do know that often in the competitions there is a degree of politics and other stuff at play maybe even unconscious bias. It happens that people from the home club get put higher, younger kids get put higher to encourage them, etc. Not saying this is always, but I've seen stuff that appeared that way and I've heard the same from other skaters, parents, and coaches. I have even judged basic skills competitions before. I am a skater and I had to volunteer during my club's competition. They had me judge for a while. You must be over 18, one judge on panel must be a real judge I believe, but other than that there does not seem to be many restrictions. What happens IMO is that sometimes the skaters in a group are really similar and it's difficult to differentiate, sometimes the person who goes at the beginning is less remembered, the scoring system is a little weird and it does allow for a lot of subjectivity. Say everyone is fairly at level with each other on technical skills, you start looking at costume, music choice, speed, presentation, etc. Say everyone made an error, but different kinds of errors. One girl falls on jump, but has really nice spin and you value that more. That subjectivity can allow you to put that person above. The two other judges scores also get factored in to make for fair placements, but honestly it's a little sketchy at times so don't enter the competitions at those lower levels for placement, do it for the experience. I think a good goal is to make it to the IJS levels where you can plan your program out and put a point value to what you do and see where your weakness really is in the eyes of the judges. But remember scores will always have subjectivity, so don't give them to much power over you.
I do feel bad about this system, because it causes some skaters to feel bad and it's expensive. In the long run though these results don't indicate anything about how far she can go in the score and they shouldn't have an effect on future placements, unless she lets it get to her head. It can also be good to take a season off competing and work on improving her skills.
I read someone's comment about presentation, that could be why the other girls were placed ahead of her. It could also be that you are totally correct and your daughter was clearly better than one of them. I have heard and seen this happen multiple times, at these lower levels where they rank the skaters. I do know that often in the competitions there is a degree of politics and other stuff at play maybe even unconscious bias. It happens that people from the home club get put higher, younger kids get put higher to encourage them, etc. Not saying this is always, but I've seen stuff that appeared that way and I've heard the same from other skaters, parents, and coaches. I have even judged basic skills competitions before. I am a skater and I had to volunteer during my club's competition. They had me judge for a while. You must be over 18, one judge on panel must be a real judge I believe, but other than that there does not seem to be many restrictions. What happens IMO is that sometimes the skaters in a group are really similar and it's difficult to differentiate, sometimes the person who goes at the beginning is less remembered, the scoring system is a little weird and it does allow for a lot of subjectivity. Say everyone is fairly at level with each other on technical skills, you start looking at costume, music choice, speed, presentation, etc. Say everyone made an error, but different kinds of errors. One girl falls on jump, but has really nice spin and you value that more. That subjectivity can allow you to put that person above. The two other judges scores also get factored in to make for fair placements, but honestly it's a little sketchy at times so don't enter the competitions at those lower levels for placement, do it for the experience. I think a good goal is to make it to the IJS levels where you can plan your program out and put a point value to what you do and see where your weakness really is in the eyes of the judges. But remember scores will always have subjectivity, so don't give them to much power over you.
I do feel bad about this system, because it causes some skaters to feel bad and it's expensive. In the long run though these results don't indicate anything about how far she can go in the score and they shouldn't have an effect on future placements, unless she lets it get to her head. It can also be good to take a season off competing and work on improving her skills.
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Speed is usually correlated with technical skills (basic stroking skills, not elements) and absolutely is very important in judging skating competitions. Skating skills in general -- including but not only speed -- is probably the single most important factor in distinguishing skaters from each other, before the jumps or other elements. But different judges will have different priorities.
"Presentation" is also built into the scoring system as half of the 6.0 score. It covers a lot of different criteria, so some skaters may be stronger on some of these qualities and weaker on others, and vice versa for other skaters, and some judge may give more weight to some and less to others.
Costume and music choice are not supposed to be part of the judging at all. They will probably have some unconscious effect on the judges' perceptions of the presentation though.
I pretty much agree with everything else skatespin had to say.
Its me - back again. If you all remember, last year my daughter went and entire season without placing at a single evert. Time for another update.
My daughter skated yesterday at South Atlantics and her qualifying round (Juvenile, Group E) was brutal!
USFS revamped their qualifying system this past year so that Regions with large numbers could add extra slots to the finals round. With SA numbers at my daughter's levels, the top 4 skaters from each group qualified + the top 4 sources of the remaining skaters.
Groups A, B, and C were on one sheet of ice with one set of judges. None of the girls in any of those 3 groups tried a double axel. The top scores for those groups were 43, 45, and 43.
Groups D, E, and F, were on a different sheet of ice with a second set of judges. Between the 3 groups, 7 girls got credit for a double axel. Top scores for those groups were 61, 57, and 51. Group E had 4 girls with scores over 54 so that the girl who got 4th in Group E had the 5th highest score overall! In the end, it played out that all 4 of the "wildcards" go to Group E girls. The girl that got 9th in Group E does not make the finals even though she had a higher score than any of the girls in Groups A, B, or C; and would have gotten 3rd in Group D and 4th in Group F.
While USFS did tweak its system to acknowledges that all grouping are not equal, it did not work in this case. I am hoping that USFS goes back and does some more tinkering. While they are at it, hopefully they will rebalance the Regionals in terms of numbers. On the East Coast, Regionals tend to have 6 groups (20+) of Juvenile girls; however, on the West Coast, Regionals tend have 2 groups (<20) of Juvenile girls. I think this unbalanced qualifying structure affects the competitive pipeline.
Finals are on Sunday and my daughter is skating! It should be interesting!
My daughter skated yesterday at South Atlantics and her qualifying round (Juvenile, Group E) was brutal!
USFS revamped their qualifying system this past year so that Regions with large numbers could add extra slots to the finals round. With SA numbers at my daughter's levels, the top 4 skaters from each group qualified + the top 4 sources of the remaining skaters.
Groups A, B, and C were on one sheet of ice with one set of judges. None of the girls in any of those 3 groups tried a double axel. The top scores for those groups were 43, 45, and 43.
Groups D, E, and F, were on a different sheet of ice with a second set of judges. Between the 3 groups, 7 girls got credit for a double axel. Top scores for those groups were 61, 57, and 51. Group E had 4 girls with scores over 54 so that the girl who got 4th in Group E had the 5th highest score overall! In the end, it played out that all 4 of the "wildcards" go to Group E girls. The girl that got 9th in Group E does not make the finals even though she had a higher score than any of the girls in Groups A, B, or C; and would have gotten 3rd in Group D and 4th in Group F.
While USFS did tweak its system to acknowledges that all grouping are not equal, it did not work in this case. I am hoping that USFS goes back and does some more tinkering. While they are at it, hopefully they will rebalance the Regionals in terms of numbers. On the East Coast, Regionals tend to have 6 groups (20+) of Juvenile girls; however, on the West Coast, Regionals tend have 2 groups (<20) of Juvenile girls. I think this unbalanced qualifying structure affects the competitive pipeline.
Finals are on Sunday and my daughter is skating! It should be interesting!
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All 8 girls from Group E finished in the top half of the finals (28 spots). Two of the 8 are going to Easterns.
From what I hear, USFS is changing the qualifying rules again. The two 2 girls from each group qualify and then the remaining slots are filled based on qualifying round scores.
From what I hear, USFS is changing the qualifying rules again. The two 2 girls from each group qualify and then the remaining slots are filled based on qualifying round scores.
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Competing in Figure Skating is not for everyone. I would say, if your daughter loves to skate and is doing it for the joy of skating, that is the main thing. She can continue to skate and grow with the sport without competing. I know from a personal level how heart breaking it can be. The other option is she could try another discipline of skating, say ice dance. Having a partner sometimes helps with confidence. Many skaters have started out as solo skaters only to discover their talents lie in other areas. I hope this helps.
I looked at the groups for the various regionals and I'm a bit concerned about the distribution of talent. The scores in your groups are higher than you find in the midwest and on the west coast. Also, in a couple of the regions, there are only 2 small groups of 13 juvenile girls (which I now see you mentioned in your previous post). I think it artificially pulls more skaters from regions that aren't really going to benefit the sport and cuts out girls who might have placed much higher at sectionals.
I've considered the idea that perhaps the judges are being just a bit more generous in some areas, but I am not sure that can account for a 2-3 point difference. I also know that every region has potential to be home to the next girl that no one can touch (this was UGL with Bradie Tennel over the last few years). It's just frustrating, I guess. We love the sport but the judging policies really don't feel thoughtful and it sometimes seems that USFS is on a perpetual self destruct mission.
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Dropping in with a thought. Skate Ontario, which is huge and until the upcoming amalgamation has had 4 sections, began a summer super series with a final a few years back. To participate, skaters have to travel and do competitions in more than one section. This year Skate Canada has done something similar with the national summer series which is scored on the best two summer events, but only one event is designated per section, so it deliberately encourages mixing.
One of the main rationales is to promote real strength on strength competition for the stronger skaters at each level, but it also goes a long way in terms of evening out the judging norms, and helping Skate Canada to get realistic assessment of merit of skaters in smaller, less competitive sections.
It has perennially been true that
1) some regions have a lot more clubs and skaters than others (and thus statistical likelihood of more total "talented" skaters)
2) some regions have training centers and individual coaches that are better able to maximize the talent of the serious skaters in that region
3) the actual talent level within each region will vary from one age cohort to another, so, for example, one year a region may have the highest scores nationally at juvenile level and a few years later at novice
So what are the best solutions to these inequities?
Redrawing the regional boundaries has been proposed, but there are practical reasons why the proposals weren't passed -- e.g., increased travel demands for more skaters than is already the case; breaking up clubs that straddle proposed new boundaries, etc.
For a while, there were proportional numbers of skaters advancing from regionals to Junior Nationals based on the number of competitors in that event in that region, so that larger regions got to send more than four skaters. That went away with change that juveniles and intermediates now go through sectionals to Nationals. Maybe it could/should come back, in some form.
As of this year, additional skaters are advancing from initial rounds to final rounds based on total points. That is made somewhat equitable by keeping the panels as consistent as possible for all the initial rounds. It might be an option to have additional skaters beyond the top four advance from regionals to sectionals based on points, but since the panels can't be the same at all the regionals, you could inadvertently get systematic differences between regions based on how naturally strict or generous the panels tend to be, or it's possible officials assigned to their own home regions could be extra-generous on purpose to increase the chances of more of their local skaters advancing.
It's true that sending four skaters to sectionals from a region that doesn't have four (or sometimes any) skaters with the skills to contend for Nationals spots will not benefit that year's national results. But it will benefit the quality of skating in those smaller regions in the long run, by giving coaches -- and skaters who may become future coaches -- experience at sectionals and sometimes Nationals and seeing in person what it takes to be competitive.
1) some regions have a lot more clubs and skaters than others (and thus statistical likelihood of more total "talented" skaters)
2) some regions have training centers and individual coaches that are better able to maximize the talent of the serious skaters in that region
3) the actual talent level within each region will vary from one age cohort to another, so, for example, one year a region may have the highest scores nationally at juvenile level and a few years later at novice
So what are the best solutions to these inequities?
Redrawing the regional boundaries has been proposed, but there are practical reasons why the proposals weren't passed -- e.g., increased travel demands for more skaters than is already the case; breaking up clubs that straddle proposed new boundaries, etc.
For a while, there were proportional numbers of skaters advancing from regionals to Junior Nationals based on the number of competitors in that event in that region, so that larger regions got to send more than four skaters. That went away with change that juveniles and intermediates now go through sectionals to Nationals. Maybe it could/should come back, in some form.
As of this year, additional skaters are advancing from initial rounds to final rounds based on total points. That is made somewhat equitable by keeping the panels as consistent as possible for all the initial rounds. It might be an option to have additional skaters beyond the top four advance from regionals to sectionals based on points, but since the panels can't be the same at all the regionals, you could inadvertently get systematic differences between regions based on how naturally strict or generous the panels tend to be, or it's possible officials assigned to their own home regions could be extra-generous on purpose to increase the chances of more of their local skaters advancing.
It's true that sending four skaters to sectionals from a region that doesn't have four (or sometimes any) skaters with the skills to contend for Nationals spots will not benefit that year's national results. But it will benefit the quality of skating in those smaller regions in the long run, by giving coaches -- and skaters who may become future coaches -- experience at sectionals and sometimes Nationals and seeing in person what it takes to be competitive.
Apparently the last time the USFS "balanced" the Regions was in the 60s. They have been suggestions to do it again, but the "nos" win.
The current system penalizes young girls (boys rarely have 2 groups) in big regions (Juvenile and Intermediate only). To make the system more equitable to all skaters, I think the number qualifying for Sectional should be in proportion to the number of skaters from that Regional.
The only positive to the current system is the real talented ones will somehow shine through IF they or their parents don't get too frustrated first!
The current system penalizes young girls (boys rarely have 2 groups) in big regions (Juvenile and Intermediate only). To make the system more equitable to all skaters, I think the number qualifying for Sectional should be in proportion to the number of skaters from that Regional.
The only positive to the current system is the real talented ones will somehow shine through IF they or their parents don't get too frustrated first!
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But this in turn penalizes the ones from the large Regions that finished just short qualifying for Sectionals.
If you research the top Novice Ladies at Nationals this year, you will find that several from South Atlantics (BIG Region) never got out of Regionals when they were Juveniles - I believe one finished 5th and the other finished 6th. So they lost out on a "big" competition experience at the Juv level.
Allowing extra qualifiers from the larger regions -- whether a predetermined number based on size of placement, or a predetermined number of higher total scores -- would mitigate that problem.
I don't see why Sectionals couldn't be larger -- they're already smaller than regionals (even with the addition of pairs and dance -- and separate officials for dance). It might mean that facilities with only one ice surface could not host sectionals.
The trick is figuring out the most equitable way to advance extra skaters.
But there will still be some individual skaters from larger regions who just miss even the more the cut with higher scores than the last-place qualifiers from smaller regions.
And the same is true for other disciplines. Boys will always have an easier route to sectionals and Nationals than girls will. The answer there isn't to take away opportunities from the boys, or pairs or dance teams even if a majority of teams are advancing to Nationals already.
If it were possible to standardize the tech panel calls and the GOE and PCS ranges of the judging panels across all regions, then the qualification to sectionals could be done partly by total score. But how could such standardization happen?
It would add to the transportation costs of hosting a regionals, but maybe it would help to make a policy to assign many regional and sectional judges to regionals outside their own sections. (National judges are already familiar with standards across the country, although some no longer judge many local competitions.)
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If there was a way to standardize scores, I'd be all for doing it by top scores. To me, there's something really wrong about having six or eight girls score 55+ (or whatever they score at that level) and half of them not make it, and then the top four girls at a less-competitive regional scoring 25-30 (relatively, like I said, I don't know the exact numbers) and going to nationals. They're nowhere near the best in the nation. While part of me is thrilled they get the chance, it's pretty unbalanced and I definitely can't blame skaters 5-8 in the more competitive regions for getting frustrated when they score that much higher and never get to move through the competition cycle.
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