WADA "clarifies" Meldonium ruling

andromache · Apr 14, 2016

[email protected] said:
The issue is ridiculous not the thread. The difference between supplement to be found in herbs and drugs being done chemically is not convincing, sorry. There are a lot of herbs who can kill you with poison. There are conversely herbs that can boost performance (ginseng) and there should be no difference between them and artificial substances. It is still performance enhancement and hence cheating.

I have been always skeptical about Serena. It is not natural to have both muscles and stamina like she has. Is she on legal drugs or on herbs or may be she just eats a lot of meat - I have no idea. But I have started to respect her when she stood up for Sharapova unlike many hypocrites .

The distinction may not be convincing to you but it's convincing to a lot of doctors and scientists. But I guess you know better, huh?

(Btw, people probably avoid taking supplements out of poisonous herbs.)

A few athletes who people happen to be fans of get in trouble for a banned drug and all of a sudden WADA is a conspiracy and either literally everything should be banned or nothing at all should be banned. So is ginseng equivalent to steroids? What about some calcium tablets? Iron tablets and eating a lot of meat? Is eating a lot of meat performance enhancing too?

I don't know if Meldonium is performance enhancing or not, and to be honest I don't care. Athletes without heart conditions are taking a prescription drug whose purpose is to help people with chronic heart conditions, and that to me is wrong. If it was OTC, I'd see it as less of a big deal since those are not prescriptions for serious problems (though some OTC medicines are banned too). If ginseng was a prescription medication that athletes were taking for the wrong reasons, that would be wrong too.

ETA: Your idea about people being able to take whatever they want as long as they disclose it to WADA is ridiculous too. "Here WADA, I'm taking this mysterious new drug that makes me run twice as fast for twice as long. No one knows the side effects and maybe it'll kill me at any moment, but at least I'm winning things!" And then if it's disclosed to WADA suddenly everyone else starts taking it too because they want to win? So then sport becomes a game of who is least of afraid of scary, untested drugs? No thanks. Like, sure, let's let sport turn into a competition about who does the best on the most steroids and let these athletes permanently ruin their bodies for the sake of winning. No.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 14, 2016

Meldonium is available OTC

andromache · Apr 14, 2016

Sam-Skwantch said:
Meldonium is available OTC

I find it very strange that a medication used to treat serious heart conditions is available to anyone, but different countries have different standards. Anyway, as I said, Meldonium might not be, in all practicality, that big of a deal. A lot of cold medicines are sold OTC, and chemicals found in them are still banned. I hope any athletes who stopped taking Meldonium and still tested positively for it are allowed to compete, and admit that WADA could have messed up there. Doesn't negate any of my points.

Skater Boy · Apr 15, 2016

Well the law varies i guess but the accused should get the benefit of the doubt.

Alexz · Apr 15, 2016

andromache said:
I find it very strange that a medication used to treat serious heart conditions is available to anyone, but different countries have different standards. Anyway, as I said, Meldonium might not be, in all practicality, that big of a deal. A lot of cold medicines are sold OTC, and chemicals found in them are still banned. I hope any athletes who stopped taking Meldonium and still tested positively for it are allowed to compete, and admit that WADA could have messed up there. Doesn't negate any of my points.

Meldonium is not a miracle used to treat a serious heart condition. According to the claims of manufacturer and Latvian scientist who invented it, meldnoium is literally just like a "vitamin for the the heart" as many athletes and doctors were saying from the very beginning.

It does not cure you out of heart diseas, but it is preventing your heart to go bad because of aging or high-intensity physical activity during training. It does not make you a superhuman, but just prevents you to have a stroke when you overtrain. Even if your heart is healthy, and you don't have tendency on inborn inclination, because of hard and long training your heart can age quickly and develop any sort of disease.

Any cardiologist here cam agree what it's not a rare thing for the 25 years old athlete to have cardiovascular deficiency or just aged heart like 50 years old war veteran. Athletes train hard, occasionally they tend to overtrain and overdo enormously, just crazy amount of work almost every day during many months. Certainly their body exhausts and and wears out much faster than any other regular Joe. Athlets' joints, bones, heart, liver, kidney wears out and ages very fast.

By not allowing athletes to take special medicine to protect their health and body from potential diseases means putting their lives and well-being at risk. For sime reason WADA is actually being not smart here at all.

samkrut@mail.ru · Apr 15, 2016

andromache said:
ETA: Your idea about people being able to take whatever they want as long as they disclose it to WADA is ridiculous too. "Here WADA, I'm taking this mysterious new drug that makes me run twice as fast for twice as long. No one knows the side effects and maybe it'll kill me at any moment, but at least I'm winning things!"

You are either on a mission or just fail to be logical. The game - one may name it a conspiracy theory, I don't care - is to be ahead of WADA. "You ban drug A or a procedure B - we invent drug C". Disclosure would attract attention of scientists to study side effects. It's delusional to think that there is no progress in sport pharma and any of the top athletes is 100% organic clean and does not try to exploit the options while they are legal. And, yes, ginseng enhances performance. It was prescribed to us after summer camps for faster recovery. Although same as with Meldonium Western science is sceptical about that.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/262982.php

Alexz · Apr 15, 2016

andromache said:
A few athletes who people happen to be fans of get in trouble for a banned drug and all of a sudden WADA is a conspiracy and either literally everything should be banned or nothing at all should be banned.

In big money world it's called simply corporation war or just business as usual. Big shark eats small sharks.

I don't know if Meldonium is performance enhancing or not, and to be honest I don't care. Athletes without heart conditions are taking a prescription drug whose purpose is to help people with chronic heart conditions, and that to me is wrong.

If it was OTC, I'd see it as less of a big deal since those are not prescriptions for serious problems (though some OTC medicines are banned too). If ginseng was a prescription medication that athletes were taking for the wrong reasons, that would be wrong too.

Many, just many prescription medication are used by athletes nowdays for a wrong reason. Especially by power-lifters, runners, cross-country skiers, any so called "cycling" sports. That's why I actually respect figure skating a lot. IT'S NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO CHEAT OR WIN WITH DOPING HELP IN FS.. No doping will ever be able to teach skate beautifully. So while many people complain about biased judging or favoritism, or sport being subjective, it's actually safe to say: FS is the most honest and fair sport nowdays! Either you have talent or not.

So then sport becomes a game of who is least of afraid of scary, untested drugs? No thanks. Like, sure, let's let sport turn into a competition about who does the best on the most steroids and let these athletes permanently ruin their bodies for the sake of winning. No.

Well... Just being a pro-athlete and living this life means wrecking your body. They causing damage to their healths every day for the sake of winning. Because the overtrain often and constantly push their limits and human abilities. With doping or not, but that's how it is. By the time they are quitting pro-sport most of sportsmen are almost handicapped in some sort of way. Not only because they are too crazy to train that hard, but mostly because they love sport a lot and love to compete. Financial side of being a professional athlete is certainly a big motivation too. It's the ugly truth, the backside of the curtain we don't see much. All we see is a HD bright moving images on our TV and medal ceremonies. But there are a lot of sweat, tears, blood ...and sometimes cheating behind of it all. Unfortunately.

Not being a smartass here, just being realistic.

andromache · Apr 15, 2016

[email protected] said:
You are either on a mission or just fail to be logical. The game - one may name it a conspiracy theory, I don't care - is to be ahead of WADA. "You ban drug A or a procedure B - we invent drug C". Disclosure would attract attention of scientists to study side effects. It's delusional to think that there is no progress in sport pharma and any of the top athletes is 100% organic clean and does not try to exploit the options while they are legal. And, yes, ginseng enhances performance. It was prescribed to us after summer camps for faster recovery. Although same as with Meldonium Western science is sceptical about that.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/262982.php

Although athletes may try to--and even be effective at--exploiting the current system, at least this current system creates a stigma around doping. There's really nothing we can do about the fact that sports pharma will be ahead of WADA, but WADA is clearly making an effort to do what they can. In that light, it makes sense that they prematurely banned meldonium. A lot of athletes tested positive for a drug used for heart problems. Hmmm...new way to dope? (Not saying that meldonium is, in all actuality, performance enhancing, just saying that I can see why WADA jumped to a conclusion in hoping to stay ahead).

Anyway, there SHOULD be a stigma around doping, and there will always be a large group of athletes who are discouraged from doping because of that stigma. Because doping is treated and viewed as wrong, lots and lots of athletes won't do it. This is a good thing. I think this is particularly important for young, aspiring athletes. No sports organization should be condoning or encouraging doping.

I admit that the current system isn't perfect and there are probably lots of ways to fix it ot to improve it. But I don't think allowing a free-for-all re: drugs athletes can take is the right solution.

karne · Apr 15, 2016

andromache said:
Although athletes may try to--and even be effective at--exploiting the current system, at least this current system creates a stigma around doping. There's really nothing we can do about the fact that sports pharma will be ahead of WADA, but WADA is clearly making an effort to do what they can. In that light, it makes sense that they prematurely banned meldonium. A lot of athletes tested positive for a drug used for heart problems. Hmmm...new way to dope? (Not saying that meldonium is, in all actuality, performance enhancing, just saying that I can see why WADA jumped to a conclusion in hoping to stay ahead).

My issue with WADA jumping the gun on this one is simply this: if this had been an American-manufactured drug being used by American athletes would we have seen such a swift and ill-prepared action? Absolutely not. But Russia is an "easy" target at the moment.

If WADA were serious, they'd be going after the Chinese system as well. Not to mention the American system.

tulosai · Apr 15, 2016

Alexz said:
That's why I actually respect figure skating a lot. IT'S NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO CHEAT OR WIN WITH DOPING HELP IN FS.. No doping will ever be able to teach skate beautifully. So while many people complain about biased judging or favoritism, or sport being subjective, it's actually safe to say: FS is the most honest and fair sport nowdays! Either you have talent or not.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. While whether someone has deep edges probably can't be helped by a drug, things like strength, endurance, and stamina (all of which are relevant to being able to maximally train and maximally show those deep edges in competition) certainly can.

As for the rest of this conversation, I'm not stupid and I know almost all athletes now are taking something to help them cope with the demands of all the training they have to do. They just usually try to stay ahead of the WADA and take things that aren't yet banned... some few probably try to take only natural substances, but the human body (even the human body of an elite athlete) simply is not meant to cope with how people must train nowadays. Now please note, a lot of these people probably aren't actually taking the drugs to 'cheat' in a traditional sense (i.e. I am taking this to run faster so I can break a world record, though obviously those people will also exist) but honestly taking them to be able to 'survive' the necessary training.

For me personally, I'd rather see sport that is less 'impressive' to watch but that people could train for without hurting their bodies and hearts if they don't take drugs to get through it. I truly believe in and favor clean sport, and would rather watch whatever that is than watch people who need to take these drugs to actually get to the level they're currently at. But until and unless a whole lot more people start thinking like me this is how it's going to go.

gravy · Apr 15, 2016

karne said:
My issue with WADA jumping the gun on this one is simply this: if this had been an American-manufactured drug being used by American athletes would we have seen such a swift and ill-prepared action? Absolutely not. But Russia is an "easy" target at the moment.

If WADA were serious, they'd be going after the Chinese system as well. Not to mention the American system.

If WADA had recently cracked down on a government funded doping program for the American track and field team, you can bet there would have been a swift crackdown on some sketchy OTC heart failure medication that thousands of American athletes had tested positive for at say, the Pan American Games this past summer. That would've happened even without the discovery of some government-backed doping laboratory.

My god, even as a half-Russian myself who isn't even American, all this "anti-Russia" and "poor Russia is always victimized" whining is absolutely ridiculous. All American athletes are not clean. The difference? USADA is one of the strictest anti-doping agencies in the world and does not condone doping while RUSADA has not only ignored it, but encouraged it.

Buttercup · Apr 15, 2016

gravy said:
If WADA had recently cracked down on a government funded doping program for the American track and field team, you can bet there would have been a swift crackdown on some sketchy OTC heart failure medication that thousands of American athletes had tested positive for at say, the Pan American Games this past summer. That would've happened even without the discovery of some government-backed doping laboratory.

My god, even as a half-Russian myself who isn't even American, all this "anti-Russia" and "poor Russia is always victimized" whining is absolutely ridiculous. All American athletes are not clean. The difference? USADA is one of the strictest anti-doping agencies in the world and does not condone doping while RUSADA has not only ignored it, but encouraged it.

I wasn't aware that the FDA has classified Meldonium as "sketchy". How does one define sketchiness? If I use a perfectly legal medication that's not available to Americans, is it sketchy? Anyway, the point is not whether athletes took something, it's whether the substance in question is actually performance enhancing. Evidence re Meldonium does not seem conclusive. Furthermore, if WADA is going to ban a substance that had been legal, they better have a very good idea of how long traces will remain detectable. They clearly did not.

While there doesn't seem to be a single organized US doping effort, karne also mentioned China as a country that should get a closer look. As for the US, the system is not centralized, but I would be very surprised if there aren't trainers and training centers that are engaging in things they should not (see for instance Kara Goucher's allegation about the Nike Oregon Project). Meldonium users were essentially low-hanging fruit for WADA, and they did not handle this decision as well as they should have. I think it's fair to question whether the nationality of many of the athletes using it had an impact on the process and contributed to the errors that appear to have been made.

solani · Apr 15, 2016

Buttercup said:
I wasn't aware that the FDA has classified Meldonium as "sketchy". How does one define sketchiness? If I use a perfectly legal medication that's not available to Americans, is it sketchy? Anyway, the point is not whether athletes took something, it's whether the substance in question is actually performance enhancing. Evidence re Meldonium does not seem conclusive. Furthermore, if WADA is going to ban a substance that had been legal, they better have a very good idea of how long traces will remain detectable. They clearly did not.

While there doesn't seem to be a single organized US doping effort, karne also mentioned China as a country that should get a closer look. As for the US, the system is not centralized, but I would be very surprised if there aren't trainers and training centers that are engaging in things they should not (see for instance Kara Goucher's allegation about the Nike Oregon Project). Meldonium users were essentially low-hanging fruit for WADA, and they did not handle this decision as well as they should have. I think it's fair to question whether the nationality of many of the athletes using it had an impact on the process and contributed to the errors that appear to have been made.

The whole investigation in Russia was started by a German journalist with the help of two Russian whistleblowers. We need more investigative sports journalists worldwide.
But what has the FDA to do with anything? FDA isn't "sketchy" only because it isn't FDA approved. I think you meant that the WADA considered Meldonium to be "sketchy" also because of the sheer amount of athletes that were using this drug. And it was developed for the Soviet army. Sketchy enough?

gravy · Apr 15, 2016

Buttercup said:
I wasn't aware that the FDA has classified Meldonium as "sketchy". How does one define sketchiness? If I use a perfectly legal medication that's not available to Americans, is it sketchy? Anyway, the point is not whether athletes took something, it's whether the substance in question is actually performance enhancing. Evidence re Meldonium does not seem conclusive. Furthermore, if WADA is going to ban a substance that had been legal, they better have a very good idea of how long traces will remain detectable. They clearly did not.

While there doesn't seem to be a single organized US doping effort, karne also mentioned China as a country that should get a closer look. As for the US, the system is not centralized, but I would be very surprised if there aren't trainers and training centers that are engaging in things they should not (see for instance Kara Goucher's allegation about the Nike Oregon Project). Meldonium users were essentially low-hanging fruit for WADA, and they did not handle this decision as well as they should have. I think it's fair to question whether the nationality of many of the athletes using it had an impact on the process and contributed to the errors that appear to have been made.

While the FDA did not classify Meldonium as "sketchy", they outright banned it. I only deemed it sketchy because it's kind of odd that all these elite Russian athletes seemed to be suffering from heart failure and taking the same drug produced not in Russia, but Latvia. I agree though that WADA did not do their research (IE, drug half life) and ultimately did themselves in by banning a drug they knew not much about and then ended up backtracking. Epic fail on their part.

However, it's understandable that WADA would be concerned about 9% of European Games participants testing positive for a heart failure medication. Mind you, if some of these athletes did in fact suffer from cardiac malfunctions, they would not be included in the number testing positive for the drug because they would have declared their illness beforehand. Diabetic athletes who need insulin injections do not test positive for insulin abuse.

As for China, please provide evidence that they have anything like a government-funded doping laboratory a la Russia. They're not above falsifying ages as we well know, but I'm dying to hear what sound evidence you all have about China. I've been in love with all this sport/drug/government drama since the East Germany doping days in the 70s and 80s, so I would love to read up if you have info!

And your Kara Goucher reference? I don't know much about it I admit, but did the government know about it? Were they funding Salazar to run his "end justifies the means" approach?

As for the nationality impact on the drug banning? It absolutely had an impact! The Russian athletics program was banned from competing in Rio because of this government funded doping project! It's only natural that doping agencies would be on high vigilance and might probably think 600 vibrant and youthful Russian athletes testing positive for heart failure medication at a major competition last summer would be a bit odd?

Buttercup · Apr 15, 2016

psusanne said:
But what has the FDA to do with anything? FDA isn't "sketchy" only because it isn't FDA approved. I think you meant that the WADA considered Meldonium to be "sketchy" also because of the sheer amount of athletes that were using this drug. And it was developed for the Soviet army. Sketchy enough?

Gravy considers Meldonium "sketchy". I would like to know on what basis. A drug not being available in the US is not evidence that there is something wrong with. A drug being used by Soviet soldiers is also not a compelling argument.

Athletes using a substance is not proof that it's performance enhancing.

gravy · Apr 15, 2016

Buttercup said:
Gravy considers Meldonium "sketchy". I would like to know on what basis. A drug not being available in the US is not evidence that there is something wrong with. A drug being used by Soviet soldiers is also not a compelling argument.

Athletes using a substance is not proof that it's performance enhancing.

If they're not suffering from heart failure, why else would they be taking meldonium? Someone triple dog dared them to take it?

Buttercup · Apr 15, 2016

gravy said:
If they're not suffering from heart failure, why else would they be taking meldonium? Someone triple dog dared them to take it?

I really don't care why anyone took while it was not banned. The reasons for taking it are not the point. The point is whether Meldonium is actually performance enhancing, and as I wrote in my earlier post, the evidence on that seems to be inconclusive.

WADA tests for substances, not for intentions. If athletes take oregano under the assumption that it is performance enhancing, should WADA ban that too?

vorravorra · Apr 15, 2016

gravy said:
If they're not suffering from heart failure, why else would they be taking meldonium? Someone triple dog dared them to take it?

Well, there is always the possibility that they all hoped meldonium would do something but in reality it was useless. I doubt anyone had conducted proper placebo-controlled double-blind drug trials to test its recovery-aiding qualities :rolleye:

gravy · Apr 15, 2016

Buttercup said:
I really don't care why anyone took while it was not banned. The reasons for taking it are not the point. The point is whether Meldonium is actually performance enhancing, and as I wrote in my earlier post, the evidence on that seems to be inconclusive.

WADA tests for substances, not for intentions. If athletes take oregano under the assumption that it is performance enhancing, should WADA ban that too?

I'd have agree with you on that front; with no conclusive evidence at all from WADA especially now with their retractions, this is just a disaster. But at the same time, I don't think it's an anti-Russian bias to assume it's strange that so many healthy athletes from the country were taking medication intended for heart failure.

As for your last example comparing a natural plant like oregano to meldonium doping? That's absurd. Are we now going to compare EPO abuse to sniffing rosemary? FYI, the scent of rosemary in the ancient days of Greece was believed to promote good memory. That's doping, no??

If you're gonna use a counter-example, at least use one that isn't as stupid as oregano doping. Cortisone shots are common to numb pain. They're legal and used by athletes everywhere; why not target that?

gravy · Apr 15, 2016

vorravorra said:
Well, there is always the possibility that they all hoped meldonium would do something but in reality it was useless. I doubt anyone had conducted proper placebo-controlled double-blind drug trials to test its recovery-aiding qualities

Without proper testing, that's probably why the FDA banned it first of all.

WADA "clarifies" Meldonium ruling

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