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- Feb 17, 2010
I know. Some people act like seeing prerotations or flutzes are as bad as having acid thrown in your eyes.
Pre-rotation
- Thread starter blackey
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I know. Some people act like seeing prerotations or flutzes are as bad as having acid thrown in your eyes.
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- Jul 9, 2014
This is Completely true. I have seen Sarah Hughes perform live twice. Once in 1999 and again in 2001 both times at Worlds. For being such a young skater Sarah was a really great performer and I don't remember being bothered by her technique. Elena Liashenko was a different story. I don't think she had rotation problems but her jumps were not very high and her jump set ups were really weird. Also, she mohawked her flips and I've never been a fan of that technique.
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- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
I think witnessing that cheating technique is being treated the same as better technique doesn't boil a nice feeling.
You know, they keep saying the height and coverage of the jumps don't matter as long as the take off and landing is right. And that the size of the jumps don't mater. Because this is skating competition not jumping competition. I totally understand.
Then, have you ever wondered why there are 6 types of jumps in the first place and there's only 1 type of landing? why ignore it when the take offs are not right?
Because the 6 types of jumps show 6 type of different skills and they actually relates to skating skill more than just landing backward. And in my opinion, the take offs are not less important than the landing, they should be treated equally.
The issue with the current system is that they ignore the difficulties of various takes offs and seemingly to accept all kind of flawed take offs like pre-rotation, wrong-edge... They're ok as long as you're consistent or you're the judge's pet.
I want a system when all the take offs are taken more seriously, at least as they're looking at the landing because a jump takes both correct take off and flowy landing to be a successful jump.
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Yes, his technique on the lutz isn't good, but the pre-rotation is within the limit.
If the judging system would reward height/distance more than it does now I think we would skaters with better technique. But then a skater like Javier can do his 3Lz with good height. But I don't think that Javier could ever do a ok 4Lz, maybe pretty much the same as Shoma with his 4F. I like that he did go for it, but it wasn't very good. But he needs it if he wants to be in the game and as long as he get's credit for it he'll go for it.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2015
Guys, this is cheating lol, it is like when soccer player kicks the ball with hand and it is counted as a goal, is it correct ? I don't know how to explain any more ....:sad4:
It is unfair to skaters who don't cheat and jump as it should be, they put all effort, why should they be judged equally? There should be some punishment for wrong take off
I am not mentioning again that prerotation + bad technique is dangerous and very risky first and foremost .....
It is unfair to skaters who don't cheat and jump as it should be, they put all effort, why should they be judged equally? There should be some punishment for wrong take off
I am not mentioning again that prerotation + bad technique is dangerous and very risky first and foremost .....
This isn't the point, tho. Flutz or lip jumps don't bother me either, but they are still jumps done in a wrong way and are (or should be) properly penalized.
It doesn't matter WHO pre-rotates, nor if it's a habit or just done once in a while. Imo, proper technique should always be awarded and isu should find a way to check these kind of things (preferebly with the help of technology to give as little room as possible to judge subjectively something that should be objective) and if you do your jump wrong, you should get a deduction. If in your next jumping pass you do it right, you get all the points.
Otherwise if technique is no longer important, let's just give same points for all as long as you land your jumps and who cares about all the rest. It's a way too, I don't like it, but as long as rules are clear for all, let's go that way.
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- Feb 13, 2014
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- Mar 15, 2015
The one in the FS is probably UR, but the one is the SP had no problem.
And this all growing force of bashing on pre-rotation and under-rotation and F/Lz edge problems began since the IJS was introduced. Catching the tiniest flaws and magnifying it so that people can bash on them. This makes me sad because we are now getting pissed and having arguments on those tiny degrees rather than enjoying the overall performance and the artistry of skaters. Its like when Maria Callas didn't sing the high note and you get annoyed for the whole weekend.
And this all growing force of bashing on pre-rotation and under-rotation and F/Lz edge problems began since the IJS was introduced. Catching the tiniest flaws and magnifying it so that people can bash on them. This makes me sad because we are now getting pissed and having arguments on those tiny degrees rather than enjoying the overall performance and the artistry of skaters. Its like when Maria Callas didn't sing the high note and you get annoyed for the whole weekend.
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- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
This problem has been around for such a long time. Maria B. had a beautiful outside edge on her Lutz and so did Viktoria Volchkova. However, I was never bothered by Sarah's technique when I saw her perform. It all happens so quickly which is why they need slow motion for the judges to review even they are sitting at Ice level. Plus I don't think you can hear pre-rotations can you? Under-rotations may not be easy to spot visually but you definitely hear them when you're close to the ice. Mirai's jumps are BIG but, I definitely heard a Ka Chunk sound when she hit the ice after her flip.
I realize it's a rule but it seriously didn't bother me as much as bad posture does.
I realize it's a rule but it seriously didn't bother me as much as bad posture does.
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- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
My take is this: 6 kinds of take offs (aka 6 types of jumps) are just 6 different ways to show off how masterful your blade control is (at least in the jumps).
And blade control is the original goal of figure skating. So paying more attention to the take offs isn't wrong in my opinion.
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- Joined
- Feb 10, 2015
Bad posture can be unpleasent for your eyes, but bad posture cant make skater win /or loose competition, while flawed technique indeed can ...
about artistry and musicality-- this is sport + art, so technique is equally improtant, Sorry...... I can't focus on artistry and musicality when I see someone might break his hip with bad landing you know?
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I don't think this is the problem, tho. COP aim is (or should be) to have a more objective system into place, something that awards you for what you do well.
It's just natural that the moment in which "what you do well" becomes subjective (because each tech panel calls whatever it wants or because rules are not particularly clear - in pre-rotation case you just have a generic "lack of rotation" and "poor take off" in goe guidelines...), you have arguing and arguing. Try to lower the degree of subjectiveness in this and you have less bashing too.
I'd also say that should be not a way to "catch the tiniest flaw" but to help all skaters to improve themselves in the right way.
It doesn't mean you can't have beautiful and moving performance done by skaters who lip, flutz, under or pre rotate: you can and I'm sure there are many around. But it's not that the point, imo: maybe it's me, for me competitive figure skating being a sport means you should have rules and follow those strictly and in the most fair way for all involved.
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- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
100% Correct!!! As many live events as I've been to, unless a skater falls, I am not distracted by rotation problems of any kind. It's two foot landings that I found to be the most distracting because you hear them. Flutz's, especially Sarah's were hard to spot because she'd switch edges the last second. Jennifer Robinson always got busted for two footing her landings because it's impossible to hide the "Sound" of a two footed landing.
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- Mar 15, 2015
The problem about Shoma's landings is he has too much torque. I think Kurt Browning mentioned it once in one of his performances. The torque is too strong on his free leg so a huge pressure is created on his hip and knee in order to stop the rotation.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Per my understanding, what audience enjoy isn't always what the judges are looking for. Audience might look for entertainment. But judges, especially since this is still a sport, should be trained to pay attention to technical details.
And if the take offs are not important then we don't need 6 kinds of jumps. We only need skaters to jump 1 kind of jump and we all look at the landing and the competition is over. Elaine Zayak will be pleased.
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- Feb 10, 2015
it doesn't bother me" Why we just can't make the difference between RULES and what we notice or we don't? this is sport and it has THE RULES.
at this rate "shallow edges never bother me I don't know why skater with deep edges are given more pcs" ???
at this rate "shallow edges never bother me I don't know why skater with deep edges are given more pcs" ???
Because today TES is almost everything (for male), and PCS tends to go with TES for many cases. Yes, I enjoy many of good performance, which I don't even care their jumping techniques. But the medal is not give to the people as they have the greatest artistry!! For some of the hardest jump, I don't think talking about the pre-rotation thing is "catching the tiniest flaws and magnifying it". Someone doing 180-degree-pre-rotation is given the same score as other people, I'm only questioning if it's fair.
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- Jul 9, 2014
This is a good comment and when I think about it, it's very true. I can always spot mistakes that dancers make on turns when I'm judging and most people can't tell if a dancer finishes a turn out of releve' because they happen so quickly.
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- Jul 9, 2014
it doesn't bother me" Why we just can't make the difference between RULES and what we notice or we don't? this is sport and it has THE RULES.
at this rate "shallow edges never bother me I don't know why skater with deep edges are given more pcs" ???
Shallow edges don't bother you.......My Heart
Just kidding. This is why there will always be scores that some people just can't understand. I don't think I'd blab about it as much as Tara blabs but, I would definitely mention a skater with superior edge control.
