? about tall skaters and jumping

SusanBeth · Jul 4, 2004

I was just watching some Karen Kwan videos. I love the way she moved. She had/has? a very unique type of grace. Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to have had the jumps. From my reading, I gather she didn't have a flip or a lutz. Quite frankly, she didn't seem to have approached her triple loop attempts with any confidence either. I was wondering if her height made jumping more difficult. She's 5' 7''. Also, could that have been the problem for Lucinda Ruh?

I have researched it a bit and get several different answers. This being figure skating, it came as no suprise. I would love to have more opinions. So, are taller figure skaters at a disadvantage when it comes to jumping and why?

I realize that greater height usually means greater weight, which mght be a factor. That can't be the case for Karen Kwan.

TIA

Longhornliz · Jul 4, 2004

I also loved to watch Karen Skate!!! She was so lanky that certain movements looked like she was underwater if that makes any sense... she was just very very gracefull in a different way than we usually see. I liked her program to The Mission a lot, I felt that the music really suited her.

I dont know anything about if her height hurt her jumps, because I have no skating experience myself... maybe some of the folks who hang out in the lutz corner could be of more help.

Jaana · Jul 4, 2004

I have understood that jumping is more difficult for tall skaters, and from men I believe about 5´7" is seen as an ideal height. On the other hand there are much taller skaters that have won the Olympic gold (John Curry, Robin Cousins, Alexei Urmanov and Ilia Kulik), so the talent also comes into the picture...

Marjaana

RIskatingfan · Jul 4, 2004

Yes, generally tall skaters may have more problems with the jumps, it's a matter of physics. There is a reason why in men and ladies disciplines the skaters are shorter than in dance or pairs, where jumps don't count as much (or don't count at all in dance).

The strength-to-weight ratio and the fact that there's more body mass distant from the rotational axis of the body when the skaters are tall are some of the reasons. Also the skaters' technique has to be sharper because for example, if the skater tilts a jump while in the air, this will be accentuated by the height, so there's a smaller margin of error.

None of this means a tall skater can't jump, as some great jumpers are tall (Plushenko, Sabovcik...) but in general tall skaters have more trouble with the jumps because of physics reasons.

shine · Jul 4, 2004

RIskatingfan said:
and the fact that there's more body mass distant from the rotational axis of the body when the skaters are tall are some of the reasons. Also the skaters' technique has to be sharper because for example, if the skater tilts a jump while in the air, this will be accentuated by the height, so there's a smaller margin of error.

Suppose the rotaional axis is vertical, how is there particularly more boy weight "distant from it" on a tall skater? And if the skater's body weight is rather proportional to his height, I can't really see why a lean in the air would be accentuated by the height. However, it'd probably be a different case if the skater is tall AND very thin (Tobel comes to mind...).

RIskatingfan · Jul 4, 2004

The position of your body doesn't matter to determine how much body weight it's distant from it, it's the length. The taller you are, the more distant your feet and your hair are from the center of rotation. It's like a train. It's easier to "drive" and control a train with two compartments than a train with 5 or 6, it's longer and heavier. Same goes for the skater. And the lean in the air would also be accentuated by this. Try to imagine a 2ft stick and how it would look if it was leaning and then try to imagine another stick, same lean, but with 4ft. The extremities of the body are further from its center.

Let's put it this way - when you're taller, you have more "body" (LOL) to control.

It was told to me like this and it made sense, sorry if I can't explain it the same way it was explained to me

euterpe · Jul 4, 2004

It's no accident that there aren't that many really tall skaters who've made it to the top. I think it may have something to do with the fact that taller people have a different body ratio where the legs are longer in proportion to the torso.

There is always the exception, of course. But Ruh, Volchkova and Robinson have never achieved the same success as Ito, Yamaguchi or Lipinski. Oksana Baiul had great success as a tiny 15-year-old, but the 5'6" Baiul has never been the same skater. I wonder if Kostner will run into problems, especially if she grows any taller.

I often attend the ballet and have also noticed that most of the male dancers aren't overly tall. There have been a few really tall top male ballet dancers, but like the skaters, they are few and far between.

heyang · Jul 4, 2004

I think Dick Button once used Tobel as an example of why it's harder for someone taller to jump well. As someone else said, there's a lot more body to control. The stick example is a good example of how it accentuates the lean. Also, consider the difference when trying to twirl a 2 foot sitck vs a 4 ft stick. The 4ft stick is more likely to show bend at the ends than the 2 ft stick made of the same wood.

sk8m8 · Jul 4, 2004

Another reason for the difficulty for taller skaters is that they tend to have more upper body strength (usually because of larger body mass) where a shorter skater can "even out" the proportions by weight/strength training. We've had a smiliar discussion about why women skaters tend not to "bulk up" too much when skating...Naturally, most women are stronger in the lower part of their bodies, when you overbuild the top, it throws off the ratio and therefore changes the center of gravity. This also includes spinning, in general, the lower the center of gravity, the faster and more centered the spin, however there is always Lucinda Ruh that proves that there is an exception to every rule.

As someone metioned, this is why many taller men do better as pairs skaters. They can carry more substantial sums of body mass above the waist and in the arms to do the carries and throws, and even then, they can be so developed that they lose their ability to turn triple combos. These jumps are becoming increasingly the standard for pairs in elite competion.

show 42 · Jul 4, 2004

Then there's Sabovck, as was mentioned earlier, whose vertical leap defies gravity. His tuck axel is beyond compare and was able to land triple-triple jumps and a quad back in 1996 during a pro competition........talk about tall, lean and lanky........42

Kasey · Jul 4, 2004

I think it has more to do with where your center of gravity is, instead of the increased weight factor. The taller you are, the higher your center of gravity, and, I assume, the more difficult to get off the ice high enough to complete triple/quad jumps. I think Laurent Tobel had difficulty with that as well. Probably why you don't see hardly any male single skaters over 6'0", and not too many near that height.

Kasey

Edited to add: Yep, and Jumpin Joe is definitely an exception to the rule!

But remember, even he is only about 5'9".

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 4, 2004

show 42 said:
Then there's Sabovck, as was mentioned earlier, whose vertical leap defies gravity. His tuck axel is beyond compare and was able to land triple-triple jumps and a quad back in 1996 during a pro competition........talk about tall, lean and lanky........42

I believe that individuals are blessed with natural abilitites. One of those abilities in figure skating is to easily rotate in the air. Whatever the reason, be it center of gravity or something else, those skaters are blessed.

Not unlike those jumpers in the Summer Olympics. They have natural spring in the their legs. Center of gravity? or just plain gentically blessed?

Joe

RealtorGal · Jul 4, 2004

I don't understand why a man, say 5'8" would be able to pull off jumps a woman of the same height would find difficult. If I think of that stick analogy posted by Rlskatingfan, wouldn't both people have the same amount of "stick" to rotate?

I admit it: I never took Physics in high school or college. :eek:

RIskatingfan · Jul 4, 2004

Don't forget that the differences between a man's and a woman's body go far beyond those first one or two things you immediately think about

heyang · Jul 4, 2004

Men can generally pull off more difficult jumps than the ladies because of their upper body strength and general body shape. Breasts and Hips slow down rotation. I think Discovery had a special that involved the physics of skating. Tim Goebal apparently has a perfect physique for being able to do quads - broad shoulders and slim hips. Most of the ladies that do quads are either somewhat pre-pubescent or are genetically fortunate to not be overly endowed in this sport.

It also 'explains' why most successful male skaters are older and why the young female phenoms seem to be impacted more by growth spurts.

Lotta · Jul 4, 2004

I think Discovery had a special that involved the physics of skating.

Really? I would love to see that the next time it airs. I'm not one who is interested in physics (or any other scientific subjects) but I guess this topic here would definitely get me interested.

Speaking of tall male single skaters, Jordan Brauninger himself is 6'1". From what I'm reading here, it seems he'll be having some trouble in the future with his jumps because of his height. I hope he's an exception.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 5, 2004

Quote:
I think Discovery had a special that involved the physics of skating.

If I remember correctly the Discovery Channel's examples were Tim and Sasha both of whom have slim hips. Although Sasha has not landed a quad, I believe she has made the 4 air rotations. So maybe the physics involved there are correct as far as rotations go (landing a jump is one of technique not physics).

However, as to the slim hips, Midori Ito was not slim hipped, and for her she was a powerful jumper. Irina, too, is not slim hipped.

As to height. I do believe there is a physical law about a more concise body can spin faster in the air than a large body. But laws can be broken

Joe

Spinner · Jul 5, 2004

Sasha's landed a quad, but only in practice (it was shown during one of the GP events a couple years ago). As for the physics of rotational speed, I remember Cathy Casey commenting on this in the early/mid 90s. She said she helped with a study of jumps and what it takes to go from doubles to triples, etc. They found it took a quicker snap with the arms at pulling in rather than a higher leap....meaning, you need stronger arms, not necessarily stronger legs.

As for the tall issue, I can attest to that. I'm 6'5" and used to compete in pairs. I trained up through 3 of my doubles (loop, toe and Sal) before 'retiring'. My coach really worked with me on getting my jumps as near to vertical each time because yes, any deviation from that resulted in greater lean in the air.

BittyBug · Jul 5, 2004

Sasha's Quad

Joe - Here's a video clip of Sasha landing her quad sow in practice.

SkateFan4Life · Jul 5, 2004

I also enjoyed watching Karen Kwan as a competitive figure skater. She was elegant and musical; however, she did not have the technical content to challenge for a top spot at US Nationals. If I recall this correctly, her highest placement at Nationals was fifth in 1996, the year her younger sister Michelle won her first of eight national titles. Michelle had the lutz, loop, flip, etc - everything but the triple axel - while her sister Karen did not have a consistent lutz or loop.

As far as being a "tall" skater is concerned, Karen was actually not "tall" - she is around 5'4" I believe. Compared to her sister, of course, she looked "tall".

There have been a number of "tall" women skaters who have achieved success - Lisa-Marie Allen of the US comes to mind - the leggy, California skater who won three US silver medals behind Linda Fratianne. Sarah Hughes, who won the gold medal at the 2002 Olympics, looked "tall" on the ice, but that did not prevent her from being the first woman to land two triple/triples at the Olympics.

Overall, being tall places a burden of achieving the quick rotation that is needed to complete the triples. And female figure skaters who have quick growth spurts often have problems in restoring their rotation, timing, and completion of their triples.

IMHO, I would rather see women reach the top in their twenties, when they have grown into mature young women, rather than reach the top at 15 or 16, when, in many cases, they are still maturing and have not yet developed an adult body.
Just my own opinion, of course.

? about tall skaters and jumping

SusanBeth

Longhornliz

Jaana

RIskatingfan

shine

RIskatingfan

euterpe

heyang

sk8m8

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan

Kasey

Joesitz (RIP)

RealtorGal

RIskatingfan

heyang

Lotta

Joesitz (RIP)

Spinner

BittyBug

SkateFan4Life

Guest

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