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Thread: Will this be the year for Sasha Cohen?

  1. #46
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    I'd go on a limb here, and predict, that just like in the two past years, this season is also going to be a "season of Sasha Cohen," with her making a podium at every competition she's in, and dominating the ISU charts and COP-ruled events. Personally, I find assertions, that only World (or Nationals) title count for something, to be very "Christine Brennan-ish," and simply dishonest. There are numerous beloved skaters, that haven't won 1/2 of what SC have managed to win thus far, and they're considered an accomplished athletes. Should Sasha win couples of "biggies,"- that should be an icing on the cake, but even without it, she's currently #1 skating lady on the international arena. And to the notion that skaters don't care much for how they perform at Pro/Ams, and smaller events -- someone needs to tell it to Michelle Kwan, who've decided to skip her only sister's wedding in Italy, so that she can stay home and train for the winter cheesefest.

    I don't think most of mean spiritedness towards Sasha comes from the media, or have anything to do with being "hyped" by the media (after all, we don't see Jenny Kirk, who've got a plenty of positive press coverage in the past year, but failed to make the US "A" team at the end, receive the same treatment), but mostly the product of activity of some anti-fans, who's negativity usually masked by being "defensive" towards some other skater, who was supposedly put down by known Sashafan (like Skatepixie, who haven't left an input on this thread, but who's been attacked by name couple of times nevertheless). So supposedly, it's a misconduct of some teenager, like Skatepixie, who can cheer for Sasha with "go ahead, and kick so-and-so's butt" (made during last season's SA), that inspires numerous self-proclaimed adults to come up with venomous remarks, made ad naseum at every mention of SC's name.
    Last edited by registered; 07-09-2004 at 06:43 PM.

  2. #47
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    People, re-read Ogre Mage's post it was spot on in it's analysis!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre Mage
    I'm not sure that Sasha has drawn an undue amount of criticism. Rather, I would say she has drawn an enormous amount of attention -- both positive AND negative. There is prolific and well-publicized gushing over her as well as blatant bashing. This is evident on GS, other boards and in the media.

    There are a few reasons why she has drawn such attention.

    1. She has a very flashy, showstopping style of skating, a la Nicole Bobek. She is also a lovely young woman.

    2. Early in her career, she was known for her feisty competitiveness. Some found it refreshing, while others saw it as poor sportsmanship and arrogance. From 2003- her "loudmouth" style has smoothed over, but people still remember the first impression.

    3. She is seen as Michelle's biggest rival, which polarizes her with the rabid pro and anti Kwan camps.

    4. Skating insiders feel that most of Cohen's skating is extraordinary, but her consistency is only average (for an elite skater). If she was consistent on top of everything else she could be one of the greats ... but instead she falls. What gives? With Bobek, also super talented but inconsistent, it was easy to blame her problems on laziness. But you couldn't say that about Sasha. The reason for her problems remains a topic of debate.

  3. #48
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    I second that, Kwanisqueen...

    three cheers for Ogre Mage's post!

    Sarah

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    PurpleCat, exception granted. But the REAL Laker team was Wilt Chamberlain and Jerry West!
    Mathman
    Thanks Mathman! And thanks for making me feel young! I'm a bit too young for the Laker teams with Wilt and Jerry! :D

    As for those who compare Sasha to Nancy...I loved Nancy, but she was way more inconsistent than Sasha. Nancy's best LP's had four or five triples. Sasha's usually good for at least that...it's just getting to land seven that is her biggest problem and I must say it's a problem for the majority of top skaters too!

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm
    I agree with BG. It was only this season that Sasha had clean SPs at Nationals and Worlds. In the 2002-2003 season, although Sasha won gold medals at her first two GP events, she had falls and bobbles in the SPs. Only at Cup of Russia did she skate two relatively clean programs, and she lost there to Volchkova. At 2003 Nationals, Sasha messed up in both SP and FS, and at Worlds 2003, she fell in both SP and FS.

    This past season, she had a minor problem with her 3Z2T in the Skate America SP, had clean SPs at Skate Canada and Lalique, but fell on her combo at the GPF. But her SPs were far cleaner this season than last. Maybe this season her major event FSs will start to clean up, too.
    This is something else that has concerned me about Sasha. This past season she skated her SP clean at Nationals and Worlds, but it was a recycled SP. It was good, but she had done it at least 10 times competitively (??) so I would expect it to be almost a "habit" for her.
    I wonder if she's planning to use this SP the rest of her competitive season? If not, I hope it won't take her 2 years to skate the next one clean.
    Hopefully she'll do well next season.

  6. #51
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Like many skaters I'm giving the "Let's See" to Sasha. Others include :La Kwan, Irina, Michael, Klimkin, Stephane. All these skaters are now seasoned and considered the tops in the World. I would add Johnny but he really hasn't been in so many int'l comps yet. Plush and Brian are shoo ins.

    I think Sasha can do well. She's a World Silver Medalist - nothing to sneer at! I'm aware of the inconsistencies she has had but I am also aware of clean skates she has had. What I don't understand from Dortmund was that 'holding back' in the LP. She was one step away from the gold and I could not grasp what it was for to hold back. The inconsistencies, I can say ok but the holding back was new to me. Has she done that before?

    So, "Let's See" if Robin figured that out and we won't see the holding back again.

    Joe

  7. #52
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    Joe:
    To me that holding back is actually reminiscent of many a tennis player, once they've reached a Grand Slam final or something, feeling they're just sooo close and playing defensively, not to lose, rather than sticking to their more aggressive A game and going for broke, playing to win it rather than to defend it. Psychologically it's pretty much to be expected when an athlete is just beginning to break into the upper echelon of contenders for gold at big events, but I agree that it is unfortunate. This year at Worlds was Sasha's first experience in the top two or three at the biggest event of the season, and though it frustrates those who know what she's capable of when she's playing her A game, so to speak, I can understand the sudden reverting into a more passive, defensive mode; hey, I'd be scared, too--the ice is pretty slippery, not to mention cold, hard, and unforgiving, particularly to those at the top, for whom the difference between gold and silver means a whole lot!

    ITA with you on the Let's see and pretty much on your whole post.

    Cheers,
    Sarah

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarahmistral
    Joe:
    To me that holding back is actually reminiscent of many a tennis player, once they've reached a Grand Slam final or something, feeling they're just sooo close and playing defensively, not to lose, rather than sticking to their more aggressive A game and going for broke, playing to win it rather than to defend it. Psychologically it's pretty much to be expected when an athlete is just beginning to break into the upper echelon of contenders for gold at big events, but I agree that it is unfortunate. This year at Worlds was Sasha's first experience in the top two or three at the biggest event of the season, and though it frustrates those who know what she's capable of when she's playing her A game, so to speak, I can understand the sudden reverting into a more passive, defensive mode; hey, I'd be scared, too--the ice is pretty slippery, not to mention cold, hard, and unforgiving, particularly to those at the top, for whom the difference between gold and silver means a whole lot!

    ITA with you on the Let's see and pretty much on your whole post.

    Cheers,
    Sarah

    ITA with you. While Sasha has been in first after the short before this was the first time at Worlds. She was skating not to lose more than to win. You could see the nerves and fear in her face backstage warming up. This was her first real chance of winning Worlds and the pressure got to her. She had also finished 4th twice and knew with her competition that if she totally screwed up she'd be off the podium again. Even if she didn't win she didn't want to blow a medal. She did get through it standing up though which was a victory for her.
    I think the experience will help her.

  9. #54
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    MM

    (Trash talking and consequence ) that is fine as long they don't take themselves too seriously
    I have been watching NFL, sports and NBA for a while. The trash talkers (athletes and fans) know the rules. Pre game trash talk + failure to deliver during game lead to post game consequences. They know to keep quiet post game. IIRC one time Sir Charles had some pre game trash talk, the Suns lost to the Bulls. Post game the Bull fans and press had their talk, and instant replay, Sir Charles and fans kept quiet.

    One time Malone had some post game whining. He whined about the Jazz did not have a dominant center. The ESPN guys went on and on and appropriately named him a "cry baby".

    I prefer athletes and fans not to trash talk. But if they choose to trash talk they can't have it both ways. Drum up pre game trash talk, then whined ad nauseum post game.

    Sasha is the best... Shizuka has no art
    That is mean spirited bash. At best it is pre game trash talk. It is not "Sasha cheering" Some self proclaimed adult Sasha fans condone, gloss over, encourage these kinds of "venom". Who are they kidding? If they want to know more about consequences of post game whining, just ask Malone. The press appropriately called them "cry babies"

    I wonder if some Shizuka fans repeat almost verbatim what some of the Cohen fans were saying " Shizuka is the best, Cohen has no art" what would some of the trash talking Cohen fans do?

    Considering all the pre game trash talk from Cohen fans all over the net, and the post game whining from some of the self professed adult Cohen fans, IMO Cohen is picked less than most other top tier skaters.
    Last edited by rtureck; 07-11-2004 at 05:39 PM.

  10. #55
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    "Shizuka has no art" isn't a bash, just an opinion (just like statement "Cohen has no art"). IF you do take such verbatim as a trash talk, than no wonder that's most of pre or post competition net gossip seems like an endless stream of "trashing" to you. If we are to consider innocent remarks, like "so-and-so is the best" to be a "mean spirited bash," than we're just better ban skating boards all together.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Registered
    "Personally, I find assertions, that only World (or Nationals) title count for something, to be very "Christine Brennan-ish," and simply dishonest. There are numerous beloved skaters, that haven't won 1/2 of what SC have managed to win thus far, and they're considered an accomplished athletes. Should Sasha win couples of "biggies,"- that should be an icing on the cake, but even without it, she's currently #1 skating lady on the international arena.
    I guess I'm the only person on the Internet who likes Christine Brennan , but other than that, I think this is a very good point. I hope that Sasha feels the same way and is rightfully proud of her accomplishments.

    Now, I know a lot of people will say, hey, why isn't Michelle the number one lady? I'll catch a lot of flack for this, but to tell the truth, I think Michelle has, in her mind, already "gone pro." Last year she participated in only two amateur contests -- U.S. Nationals and Worlds. On the "pro" side, she headlined three exhibition-style cheesefests, did all the stops on both of the summer COI tours, went to Hong Kong to open a Disney theme park, and did a bunch of public appearances, magazine interviews, and endorsements.

    I can't wait to see what next year brings for Michelle. IMO the COP is made for her -- she must be licking her chops at the thought of all those GOE's and Component Scores!

    Sasha, too!

    Mathman

  12. #57
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    "Shizuka has no art" isn't a bash, just an opinion (just like statement "Cohen has no art")
    It may not be a bash, but the statement is certainly "loaded" - phrased in a way that would almost definitely provoke responses from certain fans of the other skater, and therefore might qualify as "trash talk".

    Now, I know a lot of people will say, hey, why isn't Michelle the number one lady? I'll catch a lot of flack for this, but to tell the truth, I think Michelle has, in her mind, already "gone pro."
    I won't be one of those to give you flack, in fact, although I'm not sure about the "going pro" part I do agree with the statement- MK just hasn't really competed enough in the past two years, IMO, to be considered still in the game. If she really wanted to take a break, IMO she might as well just have taken the year (s) off. This has resulted in her (for the time being) being surpassed by others, and therefore why she isn't 1st anymore.

    And even though SC might be getting more "flack", she has simply just competed more...a lot, actually so naturally people WILL talk about her, regardless of whether it's + or - .

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    I'll catch a lot of flack for this, but to tell the truth,

    Mathman
    Why would you catch any flack. Michelle has been there done that, she has 5 senior world gold, one junior world gold, TMTC (almost too many to count national medals) a boat load of medals. If we go by some self professed adult Cohen fans idea of importance, i.e. rank #1 by the ISU, then MK has the history of being ranked as #1 too.

    LOL, ISU world rankings just like any other sports ranking, subject to change daily. But if that is the main course and biggie competitions are just "icing" on the cake, MK has the cake and icings and everything that goes with it. and many other skaters are still aiming for the "icing".
    ____________________

    a self proclaimed adult Cohen fan

    "Cohen has no art"

    is just an opinion
    Last edited by rtureck; 07-11-2004 at 05:40 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog
    If she really wanted to take a break, IMO she might as well just have taken the year(s) off.
    I think the reason she didn't is that she really does like to rack up those National Championships and World medals, even while coasting in terms of doing a full competitive season.

    About the pro versus amateur mind-set, to me Michelle seems more interested these days in delighting audiences while making money (what pros do) than in striving for higher, faster, stronger (what amateurs do).

    But I might be wrong. Now that I think of it, Michelle has noticably increased her strength, and the speed of both her spins and her footwork, and the height of her jumps over the last two years.

    Mathman

  15. #60
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    I think the reason she didn't is that she really does like to rack up those National Championships and World medals, even while coasting in terms of doing a full competitive season.
    Possibly...who knows...maybe she really did think she had a chance of staying on top and that contributed to her doing just those events. And it happened to work...until 2004 Worlds. Even then, at 2004 Nationals she was 2nd to SC in the SP (she did redeem herself in the LP though- for the last minute. SC self-destructing there also could have helped her). I know she still won bronze at 2004 worlds but it had to have been a wake-up call for her to have that bad QR, and the time deduction in the SP (a whole 'nother thread, I know ) Maybe switching to R.A. and committing to the GP series is a sign that she really wants to commit to next season and maybe 2006.

    But I might be wrong. Now that I think of it, Michelle has noticably increased her strength, and the speed of both her spins and her footwork, and the height of her jumps over the last two years.
    Yes, but is that enough to keep up? Apparently not...

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