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Thread: Michelle Kwan's Short Program "Time" Issue

  1. #1
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    Michelle Kwan's Short Program "Time" Issue

    OK, I realize this is ancient history by now, but I've been away from this forum for seven months or so.

    I was amazed at the bruhaha over the deductions given to Michelle Kwan for her World short program. She finished her program several seconds after the music had stopped, and that calls for a deduction, plain and simple. Michelle did the same thing at the Nationals this past January, and the judges chose to ignore this mistake and did not deduct her technical scores. Perhaps they felt that to penalize Kwan was tantamount to treason, or at the very least, to penalize an icon (which Michelle certainly is). By ignoring this mistake, the judges really set up Kwan for her disappointment at Worlds. Had the US judges
    taken a .1 technical score deduction - and if they had publicly stated why they had done so - Michelle would certainly have taken this to heart and would have seen to it that the same mistake did not occur at Worlds.

    Alas, it's so easy to be a Monday morning quarterback!

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    I keep on fallin' for Kwan
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    *breathes a sigh of relief* Damn, I thought this post was about Michelle skating to the program "Time" for her short program. I was bout to kill myself on knowing my girl is gonna skate to another overused music.

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    Didn't know "Time" was overused. Did any other skater skate to "Time" besides Brian Joubert? You put a funny thought in my head - Michelle with a watch around her wrist, doing Morozov footwork (oh wait... LOL)

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    I think he Russian Dance Champions skated to it either this year or last.

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    You mean Navka&Kostomarov? In that case, no. They used TFB as their FD in 2002/2003, this year it was the Pink Panther, they skated to Austin Powers and Michael Jackson... no Time.

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    Lotta, I also thought it was about Michelle's ne short for this year. Oh well wishfull thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RIskatingfan
    Didn't know "Time" was overused. Did any other skater skate to "Time" besides Brian Joubert? You put a funny thought in my head - Michelle with a watch around her wrist, doing Morozov footwork (oh wait... LOL)
    A friend of mine used to own a belt that was a big giant wristwatch that went around her waist; perhaps Michelle could wear this as well....

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    I keep on fallin' for Kwan
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    Scott Smith skated to Time for his short last season.

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    OK, I realize this is ancient history by now, but I've been away from this forum for seven months or so.

    I was amazed at the bruhaha over the deductions given to Michelle Kwan for her World short program. She finished her program several seconds after the music had stopped, and that calls for a deduction, plain and simple. Michelle did the same thing at the Nationals this past January, and the judges chose to ignore this mistake and did not deduct her technical scores. Perhaps they felt that to penalize Kwan was tantamount to treason, or at the very least, to penalize an icon (which Michelle certainly is). By ignoring this mistake, the judges really set up Kwan for her disappointment at Worlds. Had the US judges
    taken a .1 technical score deduction - and if they had publicly stated why they had done so - Michelle would certainly have taken this to heart and would have seen to it that the same mistake did not occur at Worlds.

    Alas, it's so easy to be a Monday morning quarterback!
    Back on topic, I really think there is something in what you are saying. That being said, she HAS been using this same program for two years with no penalties (which IIRC she pointed out herself), including 2003 worlds. So I guess it must have been a surprise to her, maybe even a slap in the face. If she really did go over time at 2004 nationals or any of the past competitions they should have marked her down for it...which shows me there's a possibility that either they were selective in their timing or she went so noticeably over time that there was no choice but to mark her down that time.

    I think she's over it though, and set on really attempting a comeback next season...or let's just assume that she is...

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    Let's remember just one point: under 6.0 the time deduction was not mandatory (it is mandatory under CoP, but CoP was not used at Worlds 2004). Kwan skated the exact same program at Worlds 2003, did not receive a deduction and was placed 1st. I don't recall the deduction ever being applied to a top singles skater at a major competition like Worlds.

    That's probably why there was such a brouhaha over the deduction, especially when Kwan was placed 4th after an excellent SP performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    Let's remember just one point: under 6.0 the time deduction was not mandatory
    Exactly and I think many people are forgetting about this. We simply do not know how the deduction affected her marks, we don't kow who deducted or not LOL So this is what could have happened:

    1) None of the judges deducted in any of the marks
    2) All the judges deducted in the technical
    3) All of the judges deducted in the presentation
    4) All the judges deducted, but not in the two marks
    5) Some judges deducted in both marks, others didn't
    6) Some judges deducted in one of the marks, others didn't
    7) No judge deducted

    Seems like a big amount of possibilities to me. These were Kwan's marks:

    Tech - 5.1 5.4 5.4 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.8
    Pres - 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9

    If the judges had deducted the 0.1 in both her marks (or just presentation) it would mean she would have had four 6.0 when she was not the last one to skate and BEFORE one of her major rivals had yet to skate. I don't see it happening. I think each judge made a different decision regarding the deduction and the result came out like this. There is just no evidence at all she would be battling for the first place in the SP if there wasn't a deduction. But I suppose the majority of her fans will scream wuzrobbed until the end of times LOL

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    Under 6.0 rules, if a time deduction is taken, it must be from BOTH marks. Judges could not arbitrarily subtract from one mark and not from the other.

    Looking at Kwan's SP marks, it's pretty obvious that the in technical, 5.1, 5.4 and some of the 5.5s were deducted; also the 5.6, 5.7 and some of the 5.8s in presentation. Ando had skated just before Kwan, and she got six 5.8s. Although Ando is a powerful skater, she is not the smoothest performer, and 5.8 is a very high mark indeed. It is entirely possible that Kwan could have gotten one or two 6.0s which were deducted down to 5.9s. There were lots of 6.0s given at 2004 Worlds, irrespective of starting order or who was to follow.

    I don't think Kwan would have been in first place if no deduction had been taken. But I do believe she would certainly have finished ahead of Ando, and possibly ahead of Arakawa. A higher placement wouldn't have made any difference to Kwan's placement in the long run, but that 4th place had to have been a bitter blow after the shaky QR.
    Last edited by euterpe; 07-06-2004 at 10:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    That's probably why there was such a brouhaha over the deduction, especially when Kwan was placed 4th after an excellent SP performance.
    I believe that Kwan was placed 4th because other skaters also performed an excellent SP and those skaters also performed an excellent QR, didn´t they?

    It is though very strange with the length of Kwan´s SP programme. One would have expected the international judges to notice it in previous Worlds. My guess is that US judges at Nationals wouldn´t, LOL. Unless of course all this was some kind of a message the international judges are sending to Kwan, about them keeping a sharper eye on Kwan these days...

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    Placement in the QR shouldn't dictate or affect placement in the SP, especially since Kwan was in the final group despite her fall in the QR. And judges are supposed to be equally critical of each and every skater. The judges took a time deduction from Kwan but at the same time overlooked Arakawa's underrotated 3/3 (Shizuka herself admitted the combo was not completely rotated) and Cohen's flutz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    The judges took a time deduction from Kwan but at the same time overlooked Arakawa's underrotated 3/3 (Shizuka herself admitted the combo was not completely rotated) and Cohen's flutz.
    How do you know? The judging is annonymous! LOL! That's why there is no way to know if/ how the deductions were taken and how they marked Cohen's flutz and Arakawa's combination!

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