Michelle Kwan's Short Program "Time" Issue | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Michelle Kwan's Short Program "Time" Issue

Callystarr

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 26, 2003
Lotta said:
*breathes a sigh of relief* Damn, I thought this post was about Michelle skating to the program "Time" for her short program. I was bout to kill myself on knowing my girl is gonna skate to another overused music. :cry:



OMG I was thinking the same exact thing.. :laugh:
 

thvudragon

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
RIskatingfan said:
How do you know? The judging is annonymous! LOL! That's why there is no way to know if/ how the deductions were taken and how they marked Cohen's flutz and Arakawa's combination!
:sheesh: And exactly how would you know if the judging was not anonymous? The fact is, you still wouldn't.

TV
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
euterpe said:
I don't think Kwan would have been in first place if no deduction had been taken. But I do believe she would certainly have finished ahead of Ando, and possibly ahead of Arakawa. A higher placement wouldn't have made any difference to Kwan's placement in the long run, but that 4th place had to have been a bitter blow after the shaky QR.
Kwan flutzed, although not as noticeably as Cohen, and she had a substantial travel on her layback spin (she made a bit of a circle). Her straightline footwork looked smoother and faster on TV than in person, where she slowed a bit in the middle and cut the rink short (she ended right in front of our section). I doubt she would have been ahead of Arakawa regardless of which judges took the deduction, because, judging from SA's ordinals for a tight performance, it doesn't appear that she was penalized for two cheats and a tilted 3Z in the combo.

From the crowd reaction one of the least popular decisions of the entire competition was when Sebestyen, after an excellent performance with better energy and flow, was ranked behind Kwan in the short.
 

Dustin

Custom Title
Rinkside
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
witchykitty said:
Does anyone know? There's no doubt in my mind that she went over her time, too.

Missing the time does not matter as long as you don't go OVER time. I don't think Shizuka's music was cut as close to the time limit as Kwan's was. If, for example, her music was cut at 2:37, she could finish 2 seconds behind the music and still be under the time limit. Kwan's,however, was cut at 2:40 (or 2:39?), not giving her any time to finish even 2 seconds behind the music.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Wasn't referee Hoffman, the same guy who thought Oksana was cuter than Nancy? I think this East German official is still touting the Party line. Let's see how he officiates or judges in Worlds 2005.

Joe
 
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berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Joesitz said:
Wasn't referee Hoffman, the same guy who thought Oksana was cuter than Nancy? I think this East German official is still touting the Party line. Let's see how he officiates or judges in Worlds 2005.
Are you joking?

Hoffman is the guy: robbed in Lake Placid (IMHO), he tied Oksana and Nancy (Nancy higher tech/Oksana higher artestry. Makes sense to me, it was the judges that gave blatently unambitous Oksana the higher tech marks that screwed over Nancy), and picked Kwan over Lipinski in Nagano. Higher than Kwan in SP were all Japanese and US skaters, traditionally on the western side of the famous bloc, if you believe in it.

Not to be picky (sorry, can't help myself :laugh: ) but as "East Germany" doesn't exist anymore, Hoffman can't be a "East German" official.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
From the crowd reaction one of the least popular decisions of the entire competition was when Sebestyen, after an excellent performance with better energy and flow, was ranked behind Kwan in the short.
I don't think they were booing specifically because they wanted Sebestien to beat Kwan. I think they just felt that Julia skated really well and deserved higher marks and placement.

What the European audience really should have been mad about was their champion's placement in the long. IMO Sebestien was better than either Cohen or Ando -- and almost as good as Suguri!

As for the SP, you have the advantage over me because you got to see it in person and I can only go by how it looked on television. But to me -- time, shmime -- Michelle's and Sasha's SPs at Dortmund were two of the most spellbinding performances I have ever seen :love:

Mathman
 

euterpe

Medalist
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
I agree---Cohen and Kwan were incredible in the SP, and Sebestyen was WAY better than Kostner and Ando in the FS, but was placed behind them. The placement of Kostner is a puzzlement. Two horrid, disruptive falls, and she got 5.8s and a 5.9 in technical. Still beats me!
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
euterpe said:
I agree---Cohen and Kwan were incredible in the SP, and Sebestyen was WAY better than Kostner and Ando in the FS, but was placed behind them. The placement of Kostner is a puzzlement. Two horrid, disruptive falls, and she got 5.8s and a 5.9 in technical. Still beats me!
The only thing that puzzled me about a competition in which jump attempts, not completed revolutions, were given full credit and counted more than cumulative programs was that Kostner, who completed a beautiful 3F/3T, lofted a 3R out of turning 3's, and flew across the ice was placed 5th in the SP. The difference in quality between Kostner's SP and her LP were like night and day; it's hard for me to believe, though, that her LP scores were to compensate for her having been ripped off badly in the SP. (I would have placed Kostner in 9th in the LP.)
 

BigSk8Fan

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 3, 2004
euterpe said:
I agree---Cohen and Kwan were incredible in the SP, and Sebestyen was WAY better than Kostner and Ando in the FS, but was placed behind them. The placement of Kostner is a puzzlement. Two horrid, disruptive falls, and she got 5.8s and a 5.9 in technical. Still beats me!

A beautiful jumper, but so stiff-legged.

When I first saw her marks, I thought the same thing you did. Then I said to myself, "Her aunt, Isolde Kostner, was an Olympic speed skater. So was Cinquanta, the Il Duce of the ISU. Hmmmmm, something shifty, no doubt." Or "shady" as my 16-year old daughter says often. In addition, Kostner's boyfriend is Stephane Lambiel of Switzerland, where the ISU is located. These people, judges, skaters, coaches and the like, no doubt socialize and probably spend lots of time with each other....how hard is it to figure out? Carolina has connections and was held up as a direct result of those connections :rolleye: :rolleye: ;) ;) :sheesh: :sheesh:.

And all of the above is jmho. Maybe it didn't happen, but ever since Lillehamer, nothing surprises me in figure skating.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
BigSk8Fan said:
When I first saw her marks, I thought the same thing you did. Then I said to myself, "Her aunt, Isolde Kostner, was an Olympic speed skater.

Isolde Kostner was a skier, not a speedskater.

....how hard is it to figure out? Carolina has connections and was held up as a direct result of those connections :rolleye: :rolleye: ;) ;) :sheesh: :sheesh:.

And all of the above is jmho.

Hm, you make up a conspiracy theory in your own head on the flimsiest of connections, not even all true, and then you roll your eyes at the people you're accusing without evidence? Sheesh!

Maybe it didn't happen, but ever since Lillehamer, nothing surprises me in figure skating.

Why Lillehammer?
 
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RIskatingfan

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I thought Kostner deserved her placement in the SP. She skated beautifully and landed three triples, but not the lutz and her solo jump was a loop. All the other top ladies in the top 4 landed a lutz and a flip, the hardest triples (not counting the axel). She would probably be placed higher if she had better presentation, but the only one ahead of her with weaker presentation is Miki Ando who skated very well too and had the more difficult jump content of the SP competition.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
On topic for a moment:

If I understand correctly, the length of the ladies' short program has now been extended to 2:50. I wonder how pissed Kwan must be now! :p
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
berthes ghost said:
Not to be picky (sorry, can't help myself :laugh: ) but as "East Germany" doesn't exist anymore, Hoffman can't be a "East German" official.

Be picky. It's ok with me. But bear in mind, I am an East Side New Yorker and there is a difference between East and West. :laugh:

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Red Dog said:
On topic for a moment:

If I understand correctly, the length of the ladies' short program has now been extended to 2:50. I wonder how pissed Kwan must be now! :p

Dog - She aint pissed. She doesn't need another medal. Those other skaters do.

Joe
 

BigSk8Fan

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 3, 2004
gkelly said:
Isolde Kostner was a skier, not a speedskater.

Okay, I made a mistake. I thought she was a speedskater.


Hm, you make up a conspiracy theory in your own head on the flimsiest of connections, not even all true, and then you roll your eyes at the people you're accusing without evidence? Sheesh!

And I also said that it may or may NOT be true. I never said it was concrete. Hence the roll eyes. Try paying attention and stop being so condescending.

Why Lillehammer? [/QUOTE]

Because this was the first time I realized that figure skating was so political, from the Kerrigan/Baiul decision to the ice dancing. It was then I found out about national bias. I actually believed that skating was judged fairly - NOT.
 
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R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Joesitz said:
Dog - She aint pissed. She doesn't need another medal. Those other skaters do.

Joe

I know...I was half-kidding...I do wonder though, it has to go through her mind, since she's going to stay for next season...

P.S. She got her medal anyway, even with the time deduction, so...
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
RIskatingfan said:
I thought Kostner deserved her placement in the SP. She skated beautifully and landed three triples, but not the lutz and her solo jump was a loop. All the other top ladies in the top 4 landed a lutz and a flip, the hardest triples (not counting the axel). She would probably be placed higher if she had better presentation, but the only one ahead of her with weaker presentation is Miki Ando who skated very well too and had the more difficult jump content of the SP competition.

I disagree with your conclusions. Under CoP, which I understand is not OBO, but is supposed to be the codification of existing relative difficulty, a base 3F/3T is worth 10.1, or 25% more than a base 3Z/2T. While 3F/3T is still ~10% less difficult than the 3Z/3R, we won't know until next year whether Ando's 1/2 turn cheat on the 3R will count as a 3R or 2R; a 3Z/2R is worth over 20% less than a fully rotated 3F/3T. Arakawa had a tilt on the 3Z and a cheat on the 3T on her 3Z/3T, as well as a cheat on her 3F. Kwan had a small flutz and Cohen had a noticeable flutz. Comparing quality -- height, run-out from both jumps, rhythm -- Kostner's 3F/3T was on par with Ando's 3Z/3R and a little better than Sebestyen's 3Z/2T, and was superior to Arakawa's 3Z/3T, Kwan's 3FZ/2T, and Cohen's 3FZ/2T; neither Kwan's nor Cohen's combination had much height or flow-out, although both of Cohen's jumps were right on the music. Factoring both difficulty and quality, the only SP jump combination that was better than Kostner's was Ando's, if it is universally agreed that a 3R at the end of the combination should always be given .5 turn cheat.

The difference in difficulty between a 3F and a 3R is quite slight slight, or a little over 5%. However, if you also include the difficult in the entrance, the backwards turning edge entrance directly into the 3R was more difficult than any of the steps into the 3F, especially when you consider that Ando was the only skater to go directly into the 3F without delay. Kostner's spins were quite good, and she has good line in her spirals; factoring those in, Ando would have had, at most, only a slight advantage in tech. However, under OBO, the judges are under no obligation to weight the elements correctly. They can be wowed by a 3Z/3R compared to a 3F/3T, when the actual comparatively difficulty is closer to 3Z/3R vs. 3F/3T.

As far as presentation, Kostner was the fastest of the skaters in the last two SP flights, with superb edges, fine posture, excellent responsiveness to her music, sureness and flow, and she was all over the ice surface. Ando was quite heavy in her movements and matched neither the flow, lightness, nor interpretive qualities. I would have put Sebestyen above Kostner in presentation, but her technical difficulty was higher, and in the SP, tech breaks the tie.

The SP format is particularly good for Kostner. Anything beyong 2.5 minutes exposes her flaws, particularly her newly acquired bad telegraph into toe jumps, which gets worse as the program goes on, the sameness of her musical selections, and her tendency to die in the last 30-45 seconds of a LP. If Kostner had landed all of her jumps, she might have deserved to be in the top 6, but when she misses them in a LP, she doesn't have the stamina or overall quality of the other top six skaters (at this competition), Poykio, Rochette, or Suguri.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Whenever I read debates of this sort it brings home to me what an impossible task the judges face. They, too, know that the difference in difficulty between a 3F and a 3R is 5%, that Arakawa had a tilt on the 3Z, and all the rest of it. Yet despite their years of training, we still see subjective appraisals and placements all over the chart.

About conspiracy theories, Carolina has the home-court advantage in Torino. Will this play a role when it comes time to give out the bronze medal? I can't help but think of the two somewhat unexpected medals in men's and dance at Dortmund last year.

Mathman
 
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