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Thread: Michelle Kwan's Short Program "Time" Issue

  1. #16
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    We DO know a time deduction was taken, because the referee (Jan Hoffmann) said it was. What we don't know is how many judges took the deduction.

    Under 6.0, taking a total of .2 from a mark could definitely affect the ordinal for that skater compared to the other skaters' totals from that judge. If 5 of the judges took the deduction and those 5 judges were the ones randomly selected, that would easily explain Kwan's 4th place.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana
    It is though very strange with the length of Kwan´s SP programme. One would have expected the international judges to notice it in previous Worlds.
    There was nothing wrong with the length of the music. It was cut very close to the maximum time required (which was risky) but she would be able to skate without problems if she wasn't behind the music. The deduction was taken because she took longer to perform the program and broke the rule because of that. It doesn't have to do with the music but with her performance.

    Worlds in DC have nothing to do with this, she finished in time there.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    We DO know a time deduction was taken, because the referee (Jan Hoffmann) said it was. What we don't know is how many judges took the deduction.

    Under 6.0, taking a total of .2 from a mark could definitely affect the ordinal for that skater compared to the other skaters' totals from that judge. If 5 of the judges took the deduction and those 5 judges were the ones randomly selected, that would easily explain Kwan's 4th place.
    Again, despite what the referee said, we're still working on suppositions. You don't know:

    1) How/ if many judges deducted
    2) If those deducted marks were the ones chosen randomly

    These are big "if's". Therefore, you still can't conclude on what placement she would have if she finished the program on time.

    Just because the judges were SUPPOSED to deduct 0.2 (total) from her marks, didn't mean it happened. And with the annonymous judging you sure have no way to know it.

  4. #19
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    "I was amazed at the bruhaha over the deductions given to Michelle Kwan for her World short program." -- SkateFanforLife
    Actually, I was surprised that there wasn't much of a bruhaha. Everyone, Kwan fans and foes alike, pretty much agreed on his one. She went over the time. She got a deduction for it. That's sports.

    Mathman

  5. #20
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    Did Shizuka get a deduction for missing her music in the sp?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotta
    *breathes a sigh of relief* Damn, I thought this post was about Michelle skating to the program "Time" for her short program. I was bout to kill myself on knowing my girl is gonna skate to another overused music.


    OMG I was thinking the same exact thing..

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIskatingfan
    How do you know? The judging is annonymous! LOL! That's why there is no way to know if/ how the deductions were taken and how they marked Cohen's flutz and Arakawa's combination!
    :sheesh: And exactly how would you know if the judging was not anonymous? The fact is, you still wouldn't.

    TV

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    I don't think Kwan would have been in first place if no deduction had been taken. But I do believe she would certainly have finished ahead of Ando, and possibly ahead of Arakawa. A higher placement wouldn't have made any difference to Kwan's placement in the long run, but that 4th place had to have been a bitter blow after the shaky QR.
    Kwan flutzed, although not as noticeably as Cohen, and she had a substantial travel on her layback spin (she made a bit of a circle). Her straightline footwork looked smoother and faster on TV than in person, where she slowed a bit in the middle and cut the rink short (she ended right in front of our section). I doubt she would have been ahead of Arakawa regardless of which judges took the deduction, because, judging from SA's ordinals for a tight performance, it doesn't appear that she was penalized for two cheats and a tilted 3Z in the combo.

    From the crowd reaction one of the least popular decisions of the entire competition was when Sebestyen, after an excellent performance with better energy and flow, was ranked behind Kwan in the short.

  9. #24
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Pau-goodle76
    Did Shizuka get a deduction for missing her music in the sp?
    Does anyone know? There's no doubt in my mind that she went over her time, too.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchykitty
    Does anyone know? There's no doubt in my mind that she went over her time, too.
    Missing the time does not matter as long as you don't go OVER time. I don't think Shizuka's music was cut as close to the time limit as Kwan's was. If, for example, her music was cut at 2:37, she could finish 2 seconds behind the music and still be under the time limit. Kwan's,however, was cut at 2:40 (or 2:39?), not giving her any time to finish even 2 seconds behind the music.

  11. #26
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    Wasn't referee Hoffman, the same guy who thought Oksana was cuter than Nancy? I think this East German official is still touting the Party line. Let's see how he officiates or judges in Worlds 2005.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 07-15-2004 at 06:40 AM.

  12. #27
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Wasn't referee Hoffman, the same guy who thought Oksana was cuter than Nancy? I think this East German official is still touting the Party line. Let's see how he officiates or judges in Worlds 2005.
    Are you joking?

    Hoffman is the guy: robbed in Lake Placid (IMHO), he tied Oksana and Nancy (Nancy higher tech/Oksana higher artestry. Makes sense to me, it was the judges that gave blatently unambitous Oksana the higher tech marks that screwed over Nancy), and picked Kwan over Lipinski in Nagano. Higher than Kwan in SP were all Japanese and US skaters, traditionally on the western side of the famous bloc, if you believe in it.

    Not to be picky (sorry, can't help myself ) but as "East Germany" doesn't exist anymore, Hoffman can't be a "East German" official.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    From the crowd reaction one of the least popular decisions of the entire competition was when Sebestyen, after an excellent performance with better energy and flow, was ranked behind Kwan in the short.
    I don't think they were booing specifically because they wanted Sebestien to beat Kwan. I think they just felt that Julia skated really well and deserved higher marks and placement.

    What the European audience really should have been mad about was their champion's placement in the long. IMO Sebestien was better than either Cohen or Ando -- and almost as good as Suguri!

    As for the SP, you have the advantage over me because you got to see it in person and I can only go by how it looked on television. But to me -- time, shmime -- Michelle's and Sasha's SPs at Dortmund were two of the most spellbinding performances I have ever seen

    Mathman

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    I agree---Cohen and Kwan were incredible in the SP, and Sebestyen was WAY better than Kostner and Ando in the FS, but was placed behind them. The placement of Kostner is a puzzlement. Two horrid, disruptive falls, and she got 5.8s and a 5.9 in technical. Still beats me!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    I agree---Cohen and Kwan were incredible in the SP, and Sebestyen was WAY better than Kostner and Ando in the FS, but was placed behind them. The placement of Kostner is a puzzlement. Two horrid, disruptive falls, and she got 5.8s and a 5.9 in technical. Still beats me!
    The only thing that puzzled me about a competition in which jump attempts, not completed revolutions, were given full credit and counted more than cumulative programs was that Kostner, who completed a beautiful 3F/3T, lofted a 3R out of turning 3's, and flew across the ice was placed 5th in the SP. The difference in quality between Kostner's SP and her LP were like night and day; it's hard for me to believe, though, that her LP scores were to compensate for her having been ripped off badly in the SP. (I would have placed Kostner in 9th in the LP.)

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