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Thread: Michael Weiss

  1. #16
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    "Does he honestly think he can be competitive - both technically and artistically - with the current crop of top male skaters? Please."

    Let's see, he's made the final warm-up group in the past 3 worlds and finshed 6th at the last one, so obviously the answer is yes. Do you need glasses or perhaps a new TV? What are you not seeing?

    "Weiss has yet to land a consistent quad lutz"

    Well, he's in good company there, as NO ONE has landed a quad Lutz!

    "nor has he managed to skate a clean long program."

    Again, in good company: i.e "possibly the greatest skater of all time". Have you also started a new thread calling for Sasha's head on a stick? I didn't see it.

    Perhaps I'll try 'tape tradin' section. If world champs and Oly gold medalist B&S skated a clean LP, I missed it. Gotta get that one on tape!

    "His "artistry" is little more than arm flailing and awkward attempts at musical interpretation."

    Yes, isn't that the standard comeback we each have for skaters we don't like. If I had a dollar for everytime a skater whose '"artistry" is little more than arm flailing and awkward attempts at musical interpretation' won, I'd be a rich man.

    Poor Mike. Why do I get the feeling that if this very same thread was started with any other skater's name attached, the screams of "bashing!" , "troll!" , and "moderators, lock this thread and ban the poster!" would be out of control. Poor Mike.

  2. #17
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SusanBeth
    What is there for him to retire to? I believe there are fewer openings than Olympic medalists already.
    That's a good statement. What exactly is a Pro? I don't see SOI looking for more stars except the latest Oly champ to bring in the crowds.

    I think the best comments on Mike have been written in this thread. He needs a new choreographer, or his present choreographer should go in a different dfirection. He's not the greatest skater in the world but he's better than most and he has proven that in his body of work.

    There are a couple of top skaters who, imo, if you take away the circus tricks, there isn't that much left..

    Joe

  3. #18
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    That's a good statement. What exactly is a Pro? I don't see SOI looking for more stars except the latest Oly champ to bring in the crowds.
    What is pro skating? It's exactly what it always was, or I should say, exactly what it was before Tonya took skating judging into her own hands.

    When Scott and Roz turned pro in 84, there was no SOI. Isn't it time we stoped giving these excuses. If Steven Cousins can find a job, anybody can.


    Obviously it's about lifestyle choices. If Kwan and Co want to stay eligable, that's their perogative.

  4. #19
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    Yes, Weiss won two World bronze medals, in '99 and '00. But those were the years Todd Eldredge did not skate in the US Championships and did not go to Worlds. Weiss finished 6th at Worlds this year, and 2nd at US Nationals. But 2003 World medalwinners Goebel and Honda were absent, Goebel due to physical problems, Honda due to injury. If both had been healthy and in form, Weiss would likely have finished behind them.

    Weiss has stagnated since his World medal years. He has not only NOT landed a quad lutz, he hasn't been able to land ANY kind of quad on one foot. Lately, his 3A has been out to lunch a lot. His problem is that while other skaters (notably Joubert, Lindemann, Lambiel and Weir) have improved, Weiss has to struggle mightily to maintain the status quo.

    If Goebel is healthy and back in form, Weir has a competition quad, and Lysacek and Brauninger continue to improve, Weiss will be in a dogfight for a place on the World team in 2005. But if he can make it to Worlds in 2005 (and is not held up by the USFSA judges), then he deserves to be there.

  5. #20
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    Yes, Weiss won two World bronze medals, in '99 and '00. But those were the years Todd Eldredge did not skate in the US Championships and did not go to Worlds. Weiss finished 6th at Worlds this year, and 2nd at US Nationals. But 2003 World medalwinners Goebel and Honda were absent, Goebel due to physical problems, Honda due to injury. If both had been healthy and in form, Weiss would likely have finished behind them.
    ..and Kwan only won 96 worlds because Peggy wasn't there to kick her butt, and Nixon only became president because Kennedy was dead. It's amazing to me what lengths people will go to to diss skaters they don't like. Don't forget, Hamil only won nats and world silvers because Lynn wasn't there.

    Perhaps you're right that Mike's best years are behind him and that it's only downhill from here, which is why it's all the more sadening that so many are willing to kick him while he's down. :o

    And the "he's too arrogant" card is getting kinda tired. Weir, Plushy and Jubert ain't exactly demure wall flowers in that department either.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthes ghost
    And the "he's too arrogant" card is getting kinda tired. Weir, Plushy and Jubert ain't exactly demure wall flowers in that department either.
    Not top skater is, really. No top athlete. It's part of the psychological factor - they need the confidence, it's part of motivates them. If they don't feel they are the best in the World, how can they make other believe it?

    There is a big difference between arrogance and self-confidence. Maybe Weiss has crossed that blurry line once in awhile, but I think modesty and being humble is something very overrated by fans of sport in general.

  7. #22
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    As already mentioned here, also I believe Michael Weiss as well as any other skater earning her/his place in Worlds and Olympics as long as that skater is up enough in US Nationals results. It is for the younger skaters to outskate them and not the older skaters just to give up their place for the younger ones.

    About the choreography of Weiss´ 2003-2004 programs, as far as I remember our commentators had favourable words about them. I would like though see him also trying out other choreographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by berthes ghost
    When Scott and Roz turned pro in 84, there was no SOI. Isn't it time we stoped giving these excuses. If Steven Cousins can find a job, anybody can.
    LOL, that is a bit harsh about Steven Cousins... Well, I have to add into this matter though that he would not have found that job without Scott Hamilton´s friendship, would he?
    Last edited by Jaana; 07-06-2004 at 08:45 AM.

  8. #23
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    After Weiss won World bronze in '99 and '00, Eldredge returned to the 2001 US Championships. There were only two US Men's spots for 2001 Worlds, and Weiss finished 4th at the US Championships and didn't make the World team. Eldredge and Goebel finished 3rd and 4th, respectively. Weiss made the 2002 World team by the skin of his teeth, and finished 7th at the Olympics and 6th at Worlds. Weiss' best placement since then was 5th in 2003.

    It's ridiculous to compare Weiss vs. Eldredge to Kwan vs. Fleming. Kwan and Fleming were from completely different eras, as were Hamill and Lynn. Weiss and Eldredge, OTOH, were from the same era. Eldredge was a 6-time US champion (1990, 1991, 1995, 1997 [Weiss was 2nd], 1998 [Weiss was 2nd], 2002 [Weiss was 3rd]); Weiss was US Champion in 1999, 2000 and 2003. Eldredge was a World Champion (1996) and 6-time World medalist (Bronze, 1991, 2001; Silver 1995, 1997 [Weiss was 7th], 1998 [Weiss was 6th]). The fact is when Weiss competed against Eldredge, Eldredge ALWAYS came out on top.

  9. #24
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    It's ridiculous to compare Weiss vs. Eldredge to Kwan vs. Fleming. Kwan and Fleming were from completely different eras, as were Hamill and Lynn. Weiss and Eldredge, OTOH, were from the same era.
    It is rediculous to compare Kwan to Fleming, which is why I did it, to exagerate the point. People can eat all the sourgrapes they want; "Maria only won because Kwan had the flu and Irina wasn't allowed to compete" blah, blah blah, but it doesn't change facts. People won fair and square.

    Hamil and Lynn were NOT from completely different eras. They competed against each other numerous times. (1971N JL 1st/DH 5th, 1972 N JL 1st/DH 4th W JL 3rd/DH 7th, 1973 N JL 1st/DH 2nd W JL 2nd/DH 4th) Lynn was only 3 years older than Hamil. Eldridge is 5 years older than Weiss. If Lynn had comeback in 75 after an absence, she may have regained her title like Eldridge did. The fact is when Hamil competed against Lynn, Lynn ALWAYS came out on top.

    Hamil is very honest. She has spoken at lenght about how intimidated she was to compete in Lynn and Fleming's shaddow. She even said that she developed a different style because she knew that she couldn't compare to them.
    Last edited by berthes ghost; 07-06-2004 at 10:22 AM.

  10. #25
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    In 1971, Hamill was 14, an inexperienced skater competing against 17YO Lynn, who was already a veteran of 3 World competitions. Of course Hamill was intimidated, and continued to be until she reached her own potential. But there's no way to know if Lynn would have been competitive with Hamill after 1973. In 1974, at 17, Hamill won silver on her third try at Worlds, where it took Lynn 5 tries to reach the World podium because of her poor placement in the school figures portion of the competition. Hamill subsequently won World silver in 1975 and the OGM and the World Championship in 1976. The plain fact is Hamill was stronger in school figures than Lynn.

    Weiss was 17 when he won World Juniors in 1994, and 20 when he won silver at the US Championships behind Eldredge in 1997; Eldredge was 25. There may have been a greater age difference than that between Hamill and Lynn, but Weiss was not exactly a young kid in comparison to Eldredge, and their careers overlapped over a longer period than Hamill's and Lynn's.

    Once Eldredge was completely out of the picture, Weiss did not automatically slip into Eldredge's 'shoes' as Dorothy did Janet's, winning the US Championship in 1974, 1975 and 1976. Weiss won the 2003 US Championship after finishing 4th in the SP, but the FS of that competition was an all-around splatfest, one of the worst in US history. Weiss won because he was literally the last man standing. In 2004, Weiss again stood in 4th place after the SP, and lost to Weir, who skated brilliantly in both segments of the competition.
    Last edited by euterpe; 07-06-2004 at 11:30 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    Weiss won the 2003 US Championship after finishing 4th in the SP, but the FS of that competition was an all-around splatfest, one of the worst in US history. Weiss won because he was literally the last man standing.
    I'm not sure where you got that idea from. Weiss fell in his program in Dallas, too (on an unsuccessful quad lutz attempt). And rather than being an all-around splatfest, out of the entire field it was really only Weiss, Weir, Goebel, and Savoie who had meltdowns. There were a number of other skaters who gave their personal best performances up to that time -- notably Ryan Jahnke and Parker Pennington -- and the standard of skating in the earlier groups was very high. Many good triple axels landed, and even a clean quad from the first skater in the event!

  12. #27
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthes ghost

    When Scott and Roz turned pro in 84, there was no SOI. Isn't it time we stoped giving these excuses. If Steven Cousins can find a job, anybody can.
    yes but Steven is good friends with the guy who runs SOI LOL

    Then again Scott's old coach is now Mike's coach... but I dunno it'd be tough...

    And the "he's too arrogant" card is getting kinda tired. Weir, Plushy and Jubert ain't exactly demure wall flowers in that department either.
    Oh how many times have I used that argument and no one has even paid attention longer than to say "that's different" UGH


    Mike Weiss for Gold in 2006!!! (and for that matter 2005!!!!)
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 07-06-2004 at 12:22 PM.

  13. #28
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    Dr. Frog: You have to remember that on TV, we got to see only the final group, and of those, 4 fell (Weir, Weiss, Goebel, Savoie), and three of those were top-name skaters. When 4 of the top 6 fall, what remains in memory is a splatfest. Agreed, Jahnke had a brilliant FS, but as he was 6th after the SP, he was not in a position to win the US championship. Scott Smith had a good FS too, but moved up only one spot to 4th after his FS.

    I think both Weiss and Goebel were held up to some extent at the 2003 US Championship. Here were the rankings after the SP

    0.5 Goebel
    1.0 Weir
    1.5 Savoie
    2.0 Weiss
    2.5 Smith
    3.0 Jahnke

    If Jahnke had been placed first instead of Weiss, then Goebel would have won:

    3.5 Goebel
    4.0 Jahnke
    4.0 Weiss
    6.5 Smith

    If Jahnke had been placed first, Smith second, Weiss third and Goebel fourth:

    4.0 Jahnke
    4.5 Smith
    5.0 Weiss
    5.5 Goebel

    But you KNOW that would never have happened!

  14. #29
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthes ghost
    What is pro skating? It's exactly what it always was, or I should say, exactly what it was before Tonya took skating judging into her own hands.

    When Scott and Roz turned pro in 84, there was no SOI. Isn't it time we stoped giving these excuses. If Steven Cousins can find a job, anybody can.


    Obviously it's about lifestyle choices. If Kwan and Co want to stay eligable, that's their perogative.
    If Pro skating hasn't changed and it is more than SOI, why aren't more skaters turning Pro? Why single out one skater? And yes, giving up eligible skating status is a life choice. I agree. But what is Eligible skating other than a skater accepts the rules of the USFSA. The Russian Federation has no such restrictions.

    Joe

  15. #30
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    Michael Weiss

    Why doesn't Michael Weiss retire from eligible skating?

    I would assume the reason is that he wants to continue eligibile competition. As others have stated, Michael is often among the top skaters at various competitions.

    Something is wrong with the attitude that if you aren't #1, you have nothing to offer. The simple fact is that the gold medal winning skater at any given competition is not the best skater on the planet but rather (in the judges' opinion) had the best skate at that particular competition.

    Michael should stop eligible skating when he is ready to do so, just as other skaters have done.

    Dizzy

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