Michael Weiss | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Michael Weiss

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Mike has also benefitted from the COP, it helps when your coach is one of the people involved with the work up on it... so we'll see how it goes...

I also hope for him to have a break through year

as for Katia not being in the public eye it might have more to do with Ilia than it does with anything else... or it could have to do with all of the negative stuff that was said by skating fans when she was pregnant Liza before she and he were married... who knows...
 

RIskatingfan

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
soogar said:
Johnny might do well in COP , but there are a number of guys (including Mike) whose elements and overall skating are just as good or better than Johnny's and include the quad jump (and can land it cleanly, ie Tim, Plushy, Brian, Stefan etc).
Are you actually serious? I don't make predictions on how he will skate next year because talent is not everything, but Weir's quality of skating is superb, probably only comparable to Plushenko. THAT is the reason why he got such high marks at Worlds and other competitions throughout the year even without a quad LOL

And I disagree with you about Ekaterina Gordeeva. People have the right to change their minds and sure have the right to change their "policies" regarding privacy or media. Happens all the time. I bet you, soogar, changed your views on a good number of important matters as your life went on. Such is everybody's life, including Gordeeva's. Is that being hypocritical? If so, then we all are LOL There's a common saying over here that says something like "only the dumb ones don't change their minds". Gordeeva "demanded" privacy? How's that a bad thing? Heck, if there's one thing all human beings have the right to demand is privacy!

Many people probably would like to go on reading about her life, but she's not a character of a drama movie where you have the right to know the end. It's her life and whatever she choose to do with it has to be respected. I admire her very much to have the strength to go on with her life, marry again and dare to be happy without having to follow fans wishes and demands (what kind of fan is the one who demands interviews or magazine covers anyway?) She was in the public eye for so long, it has got to feel good to have privacy.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
RIskatingfan said:
:rolleye: If he doesn't win oh bad, BAD Weiss. If he wins, oh but that was because the bad, BAD judging, Weiss didn't deserve it :rolleye: He sure can't win any way.
I think Weiss is pretty consistent, which makes him useful to the US Men's team in the short term, but dull, with the exception of the first 2/3 of his Worlds 2003 SP. Whether he wins or loses depends on whether those who are technically more able perform well; I've not seen him seize the moment, so to speak.

The buzz in my section at Worlds 2003 was that Jahnke should have won Weiss' quali round and that Buttle was undermarked, but as unknowns, they were not given the scores they deserved. And this came from several Weiss fans from the DC area. (They weren't complaining, but felt Weiss was lucky in the quali round.)
 

dr.frog

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
The buzz in my section at Worlds 2003 was that Jahnke should have won Weiss' quali round and that Buttle was undermarked, but as unknowns, they were not given the scores they deserved. And this came from several Weiss fans from the DC area. (They weren't complaining, but felt Weiss was lucky in the quali round.)

FWIW, my notes on jump content from the qual round are:

Weiss: 4t/3t (both jumps two-footed), 4t (two-footed again), 3x/3t (barely held onto it), 3r (ditto), 2x, 3f, 3s, 3z.

Honda: 4t/3t, 4s (step out and hand down), 3x (barely), 4t (step out), 3f, 2r, 3 flutz.

Jahnke: 3x/2t, 3f/3r, 3z/3t, 2x, 'tano 3z, 3r, 3s, 2x.

Buttle (6th in the other group): 3t, 3z (wild), 3x/3t, 2s, 3s, 3x (fall out), 2r, 3f.

IIRC, Jahnke did get at least one first-place ordinal, but I suspect that the problem wasn't that he was unknown, just that the judges weren't going to put a skater who wasn't attempting a quad in medal contention no matter what.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Dr. Frog, you seem to forget that Weiss did not attempt a single quad under CoP last season, and already you are dissing Weir because he didn't do any at Worlds.

If Weiss HAD done 2-foot quads, he wouldn't have made it to the GPF, and he knew it, so he backed off. Kevin Van Der Perren made it to the GPF too, with no quad.

There is NO comparison between the quality of Weir's jumps and Weiss's. Weir's jumps are textbook, clean as a whistle and light as air. Weiss's 3A is 50-50 much of the time. His entry into the 3A is just plain ugly, and that may be part of the reason why he struggles with it.

Weir's SP and FS at Worlds were squeaky clean and flowing, just as they were at Nationals. Because of his 2-foot quads and wonky 3As, Weiss never has a clean performance.

I think it is a big credit to Weir that he was the only one in the top 6 at Worlds with no quad. And he got there because the quality of his skating is superb. I think we will be seeing Johnny's quad in a few months from now, and I have a feeling it will be as good as his other jumps.
 

dr.frog

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Huh? I didn't say anything about Weir in my previous post, much less "diss" him. I was only referring to the facts of what happened at 2003 Worlds, where Weir did not participate. But now that you bring him up, I think 5th was about the very best he could possibly have placed at this year's Worlds without a quad, and it's to his credit that he was able to turn in the kind of consistent performances that earned him that placement.

And, speaking of facts, it is certainly a fact that Weiss *did* attempt quads under CoP last season. He attempted them in the short program at Skate America and in the free skate at all three of his regular Grand Prix events.
 
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hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
There's a difference between CoP scoring, which has exact values for the relative difficulty between jumps, as well as a caller to call underrotations, and OBO scoring, or The Cult of the Quad. I think that dr. frog is right in saying that at 2003 Worlds, the judges wouldn't be willing to give 1st, even in a weak round -- weak by overall performance level, not by skater rankings -- to a skater without a quad, when others in the round were attempting them.

Under CoP, the base scores are:

4T/3T: 12.5
3A/3T: 12
3F/3R: 10.9
3Z/3T: 10.6
3F/3T: 10.1
3A/2T: 8.8

so a program with 3F/3R and 3Z/3T (21.5 base) landed cleanly or better could out-score a double-footed 4T/3T and barely landed 3A/3T (24.5 base, but -2 for the two-foots and -1 for the second combo). A properly landed Tano 3Z (base 6.1-7.1, if additional difficulty counted) should outscore a double-footed 4T (8 base -2).

The question is whether the quad factor will be added to component scores, against the rules of CoP. The ISU dropped displaying the level of difficulty assigned by the callers at the request of the judges, because they said they tended to mark higher, the higher the level of difficulty. However, every judge knows what a Quad is.

I think the reasons that Weir was given credit for his skate in Dortmund -- although not by all nine judges -- are that he skated in the final group and that Weiss' energy level and content was dull by comparison (to Weir and the other four skaters in the group.) There was a marked contrast between Weir's flow and engagement in his program -- not to mention his textbook jumps, except for one -- and Weiss'. I think that if Weiss had skated in the same group as Sandhu, he would have been behind ES, based on the overall quality and energy of Sandhu's LP. (While Weiss' LP was the 6th best, he also had two 10th place ordinals.) Under CoP the groups might not have mattered; what certainly would have been considered in Sandhu's favor was the level of difficulty and performance of his spins and footwork.
 

dr.frog

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
The question is whether the quad factor will be added to component scores, against the rules of CoP.

I think it's quite clear that the judges were assigning the component scores based on other "factors" on the Grand Prix last season, and using them to "hold up" the skaters they wanted to hold up.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Hockeyfan - Thanks for the base scores of some combos. My question is, and I am sure we will be seeing this is:

What would a 4Tx3T be if the skater DOUBLE FOOTED the Landing of the 3T?; FELL OUT of the 3T? and FELL COMPLETELY on the 3T? and lastly the skater did not complete the rotation of the 3T?

I'm just thinking for example, if a skater gets full base score and minus 3 the most for not executing a perfect second part of the combo.

He would get 12.5 for the attempted combo and - 3 for the faulty second part giving him a score of 9,5 which is more than a clean skater would get for a 3Ax2T or maybe a 3Ax3T. Am I correct? If so, would you say clean skating doesn't count as much as missed attempts in the Technical Mark.

Joe
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Joesitz said:
Hockeyfan - Thanks for the base scores of some combos. My question is, and I am sure we will be seeing this is:

What would a 4Tx3T be if the skater DOUBLE FOOTED the Landing of the 3T?; FELL OUT of the 3T?

As I understand it, depending on the severity of the double footing or falling out, and also the quality of the entry into the quad, the quad itself and it's landing, and the beginning and air phase of the triple, -1 (only if everything else was great and the combo would have been +1 or +2 without the error) to -3.

and FELL COMPLETELY on the 3T?
-3

and lastly the skater did not complete the rotation of the 3T?

The triple would count as a double with its much lower base mark, and then there would also likely be a negative grade of execution.

I'm just thinking for example, if a skater gets full base score and minus 3 the most for not executing a perfect second part of the combo.

He would get 12.5 for the attempted combo and - 3 for the faulty second part giving him a score of 9,5 which is more than a clean skater would get for a 3Ax2T or maybe a 3Ax3T. Am I correct?

According to hockeyfan's list, 3A/3T is worth 12.0; the only way it would be worth less than a flawed 4T/3T would be if it were comparably flawed.
 

RoaringMice

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
SkateFan4Life said:
Why, or why, is Michael Weiss continuing on as an eligible skater? Does he honestly think he can be competitive - both technically and artistically - with the current crop of top male skaters? Please. Weiss has yet to land a consistent quad lutz, nor has he managed to skate a clean long program. His "artistry" is little more than arm flailing and awkward attempts at musical interpretation.

Frankly, it says a lot about the low quality of American male skaters when someone who has obviously passed his prime still remains a medal contender at US nationals.

You know, I hate these types of topics. "Why doesn't skater X retire..." He'll retire when he stops winning, or he's sick of skating. Until then, it's up to the other men to beat him.

Mike Weiss still places in the top 10 at Worlds and has won several of the Grand Prix, with wins as recently as this year, so I'd say he's quite competitive internationally. In addition, in the 2002 Worlds, he won his qualifying round. I remember Alexi Yagudin being interviewed about the competition at that Worlds, and he said that he was watching Mike Weiss, who was having amazing practices. Lastly, often with skating it's not what jumps you have, it's how well you do in comparison to the other skaters on that night. Mike is often the last man standing.
 

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
RoaringMice said:
He'll retire when he stops winning, or he's sick of skating. Until then, it's up to the other men to beat him.
Haven't you been listening? THE only reason why Mike ever won anything at all is because Brian Boitano stopped competing. If Brian turned eligable again, Mike would be off the podium! :laugh: :laugh:
 

RoaringMice

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
I didn't get to DC until Tuesday evening, and I didn't see the Men's qualis. I've been told by several people who were there that Weiss did not deserve first in his group, the weaker one, and that had he been in the other group, he would have been lucky to have been in fifth. However, I didn't witness this myself.

I was there and watched the entirety of the qualifying rounds. Mike had one hell of a skate. He was amazing. I've never seen him skate better. While Mike isn't my favorite skater, his performance on that night made me tear up. He deserved his placement.

I agree that he was in the weaker group, and had he been in the other, probably wouldn't have been first. I'm not sure he'd have been down in fifth, though. But that is of no consequence - the qualifying groups are as they are, and Mike did win his, deservedly.
 

RoaringMice

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
berthes ghost said:
Haven't you been listening? THE only reason why Mike ever won anything at all is because Brian Boitano stopped competing. If Brian turned eligable again, Mike would be off the podium! :laugh: :laugh:

No, no. Brian now wouldn't beat Mike. So let's send Mike back in time to when Brian was eligible and see how he does. Where's that Tardis... :rolleye:
 

Linny

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Tearing up at DC Worlds QR

I didn't exactly tear up at DC Worlds QR when Mike had a fairly decent skate. Mostly, I was glad for him that he didn't disappoint the many people in the audience who were rooting for him. Sort of a sigh of relief... especially since he's been so darned disappinting before.

I was holding my breath during his SP, and expelled it rather loudly when he had his big lutz fall. In fact, as he rounded the corner and headed down to the lutz take-off, I expect my groan had already started forming. It was quite clear that his entrance was way, way, too fast and too wild. Dang it all, it was on a jump that he'd been pretty consistent on.

Methinks that Mike will retire when his sponsors no longer want to foot the bill. At some point, he's going to have to establish some kind of way of support his family after eligible skating...

Linny
 

dr.frog

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Linny said:
Methinks that Mike will retire when his sponsors no longer want to foot the bill. At some point, he's going to have to establish some kind of way of support his family after eligible skating...

I don't think Mike has been in the position of relying on sponsors to pay his bills for quite a while now. He's been making good money since 1997 or so from doing the Tom Collins tour, various USFSA cheesefests, and other shows, on top of the ISU prize money. Because of the cheesefests, in particular, he is probably making better money as an eligible than he could if he turned pro -- there's just not a heck of a lot of work out there for pros nowadays.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
thank you Sylvia...

I was going to mention it, but I give it a few minutes and his doubters will have a negative spin on the foundation as well as everything else.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
gkelly - Thanks for the explanation of the faulty combos. Apparently the plus and minus system gives the judges plenty of subjective room for hanky panky. You have to admit that when you decide on the 'severity' of the fault that 10 judges are not going to agree, and not even a majority is possible in some cases. Madam Tarassova mentioned that the CoP gives room for judges to cheat. And let's face it. They will.

Faulty jumps list:

Flutz. it's ok because the skater tried to do it correctly. Maybe a deduction, if the judge saw it.

Underrotated Jump not ok despite the skater tried to do it correctly.

Double Foot Landings. it's ok but there will be a deduction by subjectivity.

Long Preparation for Jump. subjective deduction despite it's easy to see.

Bad Landing Flow. subjective deduction despite it's easy to see.

My opinion would let the Caller and his cohorts to decide on the correctness of the jumps and have automatic deductions put into the computer marks.

Joe
 
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RealtorGal

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I hope that as Mike's detractors hit retirement age, they won't be forced out of jobs they love simply because someone in authority decided that because they had reached a certain age, they had nothing left to offer. :p
 
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