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I don't think their Moonlight Sonata is getting enough credit honestly.
Analyzing G/G and M/D Lillehammer programs
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Everyone here is only expressing their opinions and preferences, though. And it's long ago a done deal.
I've always felt sad for Natalia that she left the partnership/retired. I'd like to think it was her choice, but there were negative murmurings about her. So, since I loved her and Artur's performance at Lillehammer, that intensified my feelings about her. It may seem like heresy to some, but I liked their partnership much better than his subsequent partnership with Oksana.
I've always felt sad for Natalia that she left the partnership/retired. I'd like to think it was her choice, but there were negative murmurings about her. So, since I loved her and Artur's performance at Lillehammer, that intensified my feelings about her. It may seem like heresy to some, but I liked their partnership much better than his subsequent partnership with Oksana.
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Right and it's from those opinions where I get my opinion. Anyway your preference regarding preferring M/D to K/D is far from heresy. It's like THE opinion of most people, and one I absolutely share with you.
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I don't think anyone thought Artur's partnership was Kazakova was very special, from what I've read.
They won that 1998 OGM, but it was a pretty bad pairs competition overall, IIRC. Their closest competition was Elena/Anton, but those 2 hadn't been together very long at all at that point and had a bad SP.
Speaking of Elena/Anton, I really think those 2 combined the strengths of G/G and M/D most effortlessly. They had the skating skills and aesthetic quality of G/G (though not to as great of an extent) with passionate, interesting Moskvina choreography. (Plus, Anton was more of an Artur-esque diva than Sergei.) It's a shame they didn't compete past 2002, because they're one of the best pairs teams ever not to be considered legends of the sport since the 2002 scandal unfairly tainted them.
Anyway...gosh, if M/D had won in 94 and Dmitriev still competed with Oksana in 98, he would be the only other person on the god-tier level of Irina Rodnina.
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Speaking of the 1998 Olympic pair competition, the silver won by Berezhnaya/Anton Sikharulidze over Woetzel/Steuer and Ina/Dungjen was also a bit of controversies. They made many mistakes at that time.
The problem with G/G is they never really had choreography. …
If forced to do triple for sbs, their programs would be marred with errors. If forced to do throw triples, it would be disaster for these two. Imagine if they are skating with today requirements, they would be another Vera Bazarova and whoever she's skating with.
Can anyone name one thing G/G do better than some pair like Sui/Han? Not jumps, not throws, not spins, not lifts, not steps, not speed, not choreography.
If forced to do triple for sbs, their programs would be marred with errors. If forced to do throw triples, it would be disaster for these two. Imagine if they are skating with today requirements, they would be another Vera Bazarova and whoever she's skating with.
Can anyone name one thing G/G do better than some pair like Sui/Han? Not jumps, not throws, not spins, not lifts, not steps, not speed, not choreography.
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This seems like kind of a non-sequitor. Are we talking about choreographhy or about jumps?
Different times, different expectations. It's like asking, who do you like better, Sui and Han or Protopopov and Belousova?
Both. If they have amazing choreography that stands the test of time, like M/D, then it's more forgivable regarding the jumps. Although, by that time, many teams have already done sbs triples and throw triples. Midori already did a bunch of triple axels and many many cool transitions that only become valuable in CoP. So they were behind even in their time. So expectation should be set accordingly. It was 94. Triple jumps are needed.
Imagine Kostner doing 3t-2t in the sp, double and single a bunch of jumps and somehow manage to win the Olympics. That would be crazy.
The USA judge (and Australian too) sure weren't impressed by M&D in either the SP or LP. I didn't watch B&E's programs so I don't know how the American & Aust. judge scored them. Poor Artur looked dumbfounded when seeing the scores from these judges, especially after that dynamic LP. I remember watching that night, hearing the audience begin to cheer halfway through the LP, then going wild at the conclusion. I thought M&D should have won gold. Watching that old video, I was thrilled all over again. Oh well. How many years ago was that?
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No, that would be the Protopopov's.
G/G would be a discernible second. Babolonia/Gardner would be third. They were a fabulous, often overlooked pair. Stunning to look at.
Back on topic. G/G were rightful winners of a very close contest.
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Good to know. I've never discussed Artur/Oksana with anyone, or read others' opinions about the pairing. Also, I'd never read much about others' views about Gordeeva & Grinkov's Moonlight Sonata, which I've always felt was overrated and has practically been canonized now, in some circles. So that's why I was interested in this discussion.
As I said before, I'm a G&G fan-atic, in fact it was watching their 1988 Olympics programs that got me watching figure skating, although I've been sporadic over the years. I do agree that their lifts were so much better than M/D that those elements alone could practically justify higher scores. I recall an analysis online I watched a few years ago where someone took both pairs' lifts apart to explain and compare the technique. And also their 4-jump combinations were thrilling .... their flow and rhythm went far beyond mere unison. Anyway, I'm arguing a bit out of character for myself, as i find unison, line, fluidity, balletic arms and perfect, beautiful air positions very important in pairs and somewhat undervalued these days, being more difficult to quantify.
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Although ... it is too bad that there isn't a lot of film of Andree Joly-Brunet and Pierre Brunet. They were world champions in 1926, 1928, 1930, and 1932. (I don't know why they did not compete in odd-numbered years.) After winning bronze at the 1924 Olympics they went on to win the gold medal in 1928 and in 1932. In 1936 they declined to compete in protest against the Nazi movement.
This was back in the days before pair skaters did a lot of acrobatic tricks, so I can only imagine that they excelled in unison, edging, lines. etc. They also won 11 French National Championships.
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Skating skills. Unison. Connection to the audience. I think their death spiral is one of the best.
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Nah, I prefer G/G to the Protopopov's, but I'll agree that they are pretty aesthetically pleasing as well. :yes: Different strokes for different folks.
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One time i went to a Stars on Ice show and the Protopopovs, age sixty or so, put on an exhibition. I remember the cast, Scott Hamilton, Kurt Browning, Kristi Yamaguchi, etc., standing by the boards with their mouths hanging open in amazement and respect, like "We're not worthy, we're not worthy."
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G/G are far aesthetically superior to M/D, admittedly. I don't think anyone would argue with that. I could watch them do crossovers forever.
However, in comparison to M/D in this event, I don't observe any discernible mystical "connection" between G/G. I think the overall lack of choreography hurt them in that regard, though I will say that the program and movements go very, very well with the music. It all flows very nicely and I find it aesthetically admirable, but it doesn't move me emotionally. (Compared to, say, their exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmvGHYdCxTM.)
G/G's LP seems like a vehicle to showcase just how good they are aesthetically. M/D's tells me a story. (I don't think all great programs have to tell stories, but it's definitely a factor in determining one's preferences.)
ETA: And since the Protopopov's were brought up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTKrB71kOaw). They've still got it.
However, in comparison to M/D in this event, I don't observe any discernible mystical "connection" between G/G. I think the overall lack of choreography hurt them in that regard, though I will say that the program and movements go very, very well with the music. It all flows very nicely and I find it aesthetically admirable, but it doesn't move me emotionally. (Compared to, say, their exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmvGHYdCxTM.)
G/G's LP seems like a vehicle to showcase just how good they are aesthetically. M/D's tells me a story. (I don't think all great programs have to tell stories, but it's definitely a factor in determining one's preferences.)
ETA: And since the Protopopov's were brought up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTKrB71kOaw). They've still got it.
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Different times has a huge role in how we perceive performances. You can't compare for example the Protopopov's with anyone else. In a way like in singles they seem so slow compared today and lacking big tricks. It was a different time, a different style, with different rules and different expectations. Also, who knows, for example with G and Gif they were required to sbs 3T or whateverif they would have done it - they were getting close in the end 1990's. Moreover, if teams or skaters knew such and such would score more they might do it. The attempt to make judging more fair so to speak has many flaws. Skating at least in the past was a combination of beauty now you might do an ugly spin or spiral or lift that doesn't fit the best with the music simply for the points. Skaters don't have the freedom without huge penalties. But both M and D and G and G were inmho magical. Story or no story both had such a wonderful look and presence at Lillehamar. There was a pureness about G and G regardless of stumble and such fire and passion with M and D. Now we have great teams but to be honest the top Chinese teams look kind of the same, Russian ladies are interchangeable and come and go kind of like a newspaper, and in dance well yes p and c are good but they seem so overrated to Davis and White or V and M. at the same time it would not surprise me if p and c are held up over V and M. bUT FOR THEIR TIME AND MAYBE THE TEST OF TIME 1994 WAS great pairs skating.
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I was inspired by their 88 program and their Romeo and Juliet program in 1990, but just not a fan of the empty Moonlight Sonata. I think a lot of my issue with G/G revolves around Sergei. Here he is, this incredibly good looking man with a great body and dance ability, yet he was skating around expressionless. I know the pair was supposed to highlight Katia and his job was to 'present' her. But dude, you also have to present yourself too!!! Ber/Sik were G/G like, but Anton got into his programs and I found them much more pleasing.
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Maybe people need to watch their performance at Europeans - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qu7ayJgEn4
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