Covering up/recovering from mistakes

This question came up obliquely on the Sasha thread. Which skaters do you think are best/worst at recovering from spills and stumbles?

IMO two of the best are Scott Hamilton and Michelle Kwan. As a pro, Scott is the master at playing off flubs as part of the act, or failing that, at least at getting the audience to laugh with him instead of at him.

Michelle is one of the few skaters who can make a bad mistake and still pop right up and recapture the audience with her next move.

I would say Angela Nikodinov in the opposite camp. She starts out exquisitely until about the 2:30 mark, but once she makes a small error, like doubling an intended triple, all the air seems to go out of her balloon and she just looks miserable.

Mathman

Scott and Michelle pop up smiling, that's for sure and rarely let mistakes effect the rest of their performances. Kristi is another performer who doesn't let a mistake mar her skating. Kurt Browning is a master of incorporating mistakes into his routine. I really appreciate that in an athlete. I realize not everyone can do that........As much as I love Paul's skating, he often let mistakes early on effect his landing jumps, often doubling triples.......he did improve as a pro, I must say that much for him........There's a difference in going after the jumps and just letting them be doubles. I've seen Sasha go after triple jumps after a fall, but when Angela makes a mistake, she gives up and doubles everthing left in her program..............42

I would definitely include Alexei Yagudin, that was one of the things that made him such a fantastic competitor. Already back in 1997 or 1998 I remember listening to Boitano's comments saying exactly that, how he didn't let the mistakes disturb him. He won Worlds in Nice, but with quite a few minor flaws and a fall in his Tosca LP, but you didn't notice how disappointed he was until he finished it. And the season he used Gladiator, it wasn't a good one for him... he could mess up both quads and it didn't affect him at all. Many times the program grew stronger and stronger and ind the end you completely forgot about the mistakes in the beginning! Sorry, having flashbacks of Europeans in Bratislava...

Kurt Browning is a master of incorporating mistakes into his routine. I really appreciate that in an athlete.

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I agree... the only times it didn't were at the 92 and 94 Olys... especially that 94 oly SP... but he redeemed himself during the LP... Kurt at his finest!

Kurt and Michelle are great at covering up mistakes, but I also felt Tara Lipinski wasn't bad either. There were several instances where she had mistakes earlier in her programs, yet she managed to put these out of her mind and almost always finished strongly. Nicole Bobek was a wreak after the first mistake...usually. She did hold it together at the 1995 U.S. Nationals after touching down on her split - 3t. But, I was so sad to see her implode at the 1995 Worlds! She was rolling....with that 3flz/3t, 3flz, and then two hideous mistakes! She was either clean or a train wreak, there was hardly an in between for her.

One of Anton's and Elena's performances of "The Kid" (I think that's what they called it) is a great example. Anyway, she supposed to do some kind of "flip over," but she fell. They both played it off immediately, so that if you hadn't seen the program you would think it was supposed to happen.

I will agree with those who have said Michelle Kwan and Kristi Y. for being the best at recovering after stumbles and the worst being Angela N. and Nicole B.

I remember hearing, or reading, somewhere that Alexei yagudin said. I can't remember the quote, but to paraphrase, if you carry a mistake with you for more than two seconds, you are in trouble. You mess up or fall, leave it on the ice and move on. I think that attitude helped him to recover after mistakes. Michelle Kwan, Kristi Y., Scott Hamilton (as a pro) and Kurt Browning are all good examples of that as well. Ilia Kulik, he's another one to not get rattled by something, but just move past it. We've seen Evgeny Plushenko go both ways; but I think, for the most part, he can shake off a mistake as well. Mike Weiss is another who can go either way with mistakes...but I think unfortunately, one can lead to another more often for him. Angela N. and Nicole Bobek are both such examples of the opposite, of one mistake taking over the rest of the program. I think most of the time, Maria Butyrskaya would fall into that category as well. It's a shame, because all three could be such charismatic skaters.

Kasey

Emanuel Sandhu is another that falls apart after an error. You can see the body language change completely and you know he may as well leave the ice immediately.

sk8tngcanuck said:

Emanuel Sandhu is another that falls apart after an error. You can see the body language change completely and you know he may as well leave the ice immediately.

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Might be true in competition - but I saw him fall in an exhibition (nearly right before me btw *g*) - and he got up grinning...... Was quite funny

It's kinda relative question. A fall can hurt and stun and could be difficult to get up for any skater. Hongbo in Dortmund took a while to get himself together.after that spill in the SP. Catching an edge is rather minor and can often be covered up easily.. However, Anton S. in SLC recovered quickly but took a long time to get back into the rythym of the music.

I think these unfortunate occurrences should be looked upon as they are in any other Sport. A diver who slips on the Board or dives too close to the platform and hits his head, pays the price regardless. Gymnastics, a fall off the beam takes its toll; a skier takes a spill by catching an edge, etc. Why should FS be different? I think only in Ice Dancing does a booboo lose points regardless of how well it is covered up.

Joe

joesitz: "I think only in Ice Dancing does a booboo lose points regardless of how well it is covered up."

Not always. At Lalique this past season, Delshoes fell badly on a required element in the OD and still placed second in the OD, after the Bulgarians. And a fall didn't keep Dubreuil/Lauzon off the podium at Skate Canada.

Some of the examples here mix eligible and pro or exhibition skating. I think there is a huge difference. For example, the fall in the Kid happened as I recall in an exhibition; I'd say that Berezhnaya has generally had trouble recovering from falls.

tdnuva said:

Might be true in competition - but I saw him fall in an exhibition (nearly right before me btw *g*) - and he got up grinning...... Was quite funny

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That reminds me of something that happened at SC '03 practice. Emanuel fell while basically doing nothing but skating around. He laughed and took a bow while still sitting on the ice. I wish I had taken out my camera.

chuckm said:

joesitz: "I think only in Ice Dancing does a booboo lose points regardless of how well it is covered up."

Not always. At Lalique this past season, Delshoes fell badly on a required element in the OD and still placed second in the OD, after the Bulgarians. And a fall didn't keep Dubreuil/Lauzon off the podium at Skate Canada.

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Chuck - I was excluding hanky panky on the part of the judges. You know as well as I do that if Michelle makes a booboo, she will be marked down and from some judges it will be severely.

Joe

chuckm said:

joesitz: "I think only in Ice Dancing does a booboo lose points regardless of how well it is covered up."

Not always. At Lalique this past season, Delshoes fell badly on a required element in the OD and still placed second in the OD, after the Bulgarians. And a fall didn't keep Dubreuil/Lauzon off the podium at Skate Canada.

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At Trophee Lalique Delobel and Schoenfelder were severely dinged in the Elements score for their fall on the final lift: per the rules, it was downgraded to Level 1 (from 2), and their GOE was reduced by 80% due to the -2's and -3's they received. They received a total of .32 for the lift. Since it was the last element of their program, by the CoP descriptions, the fall didn't have to affect their choreography, transitions, skating skills, or interpretation scores by much; however, the judges didn't take the full mandatory deduction for the fall from Performance/Execution. Had they done so, Delobel/Schoenfelder would still have been ahead of Dubreuil/Lauzon, whose base difficulty was less (even with the downgrade for the lift) and who were dinged on the Level midline step sequence. Delobel/Schoenfelder had had an excellent program until the fall, and they were given a major GOE (+2 avg) on the Level 2 midline step sequence that opened their program.

At Skate Canada Dubreuil and Lauzon were also severely dinged in the Elements score for their fall in the footwork: they received an average GOE of -2.6, and a total of .9 for the element. (It was already a Level 1 sequence, so it couldn't be downgraded.) Same story as Del/Sch in the Performance/Execution scores: the fall didn't seem to affect the scores, even though there were still two elements to go and they lost the pace of their program with the fall. However, they were well ahead of Chait and Sakhnovsky at Skate Canada, mostly because their base difficulty was almost 5 points higher than the Israelis' and they gained a point more over their base with the scores on the other elements.

In the technical area in dance, risk was rewarded more and falls were very costly for the element only. The tech scores for the other elements were not adversely affected by a mistake in a single element, which kept the mistake in context with the rest of the program, at least technically.

At the '02 Olys, both Sale/Pelletier (SP) and Bourne/Kraatz (FP) had obvious falls at the very end of their programs, and both incorporated them into the programs. I mean, I think just about anyone would know that the spills were NOT supposed to be there, but neither detracted from the program at all. As a dancer, I always appreciate skaters' abilities to cover up their falls

I agree with those saying MK and Kurt Browning are among the best at shaking off mistakes in their programs. I would say Yags and Tara are excellent at letting go of a mistake in the SP and coming back in the LP.

Along with those others have mentioned at letting mistakes take over their program, I would add Tim (if his jumps aren't there, his overall skating really goes out the window), and I would say this is an area where Plush has completely improved.

guinevere

guinevere said:

Along with those others have mentioned at letting mistakes take over their program, I would add Tim (if his jumps aren't there, his overall skating really goes out the window), and I would say this is an area where Plush has completely improved.

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I think so too. My first thought was of Plush, but thinking about it, he does actually seem to be able to hold himself together now quite well. Euros was a bit of a disaster, but it was clear that he was trying his hardest rather than giving up. Also, he looked a little nervous in his Worlds LP, but after that fall on the 3loop entrance (and those kinds of falls *hurt*), he actually got up smiling and seemed if anything to be more into it. Maybe that's just me, I dunno. He certainly didn't let that fall affect the rest of his programme though.

Also, I think maybe Sandhu is improving - in his 04 Worlds LP, he fell on his first jump (the quad), but then came back with a strong 3axel-3toe (IIRC) and skated the rest of the performance very well. He didn't look like he was going to give up because of that one mistake.

I thought Sandhu definitely improved this season. His 4Cs LP peformance was an example and he showed it at Worlds too. Granted, he bombed in the jump departement in the Worlds SP, but it didn't affect his presentation that much, I thought. He still sold the program extremely well unlikely so many times in the past when he missed the jumps and would give up completely, just going through the motions. And the LP, despite the lack of quads, I thought he still skated pretty well. I'm looking forward to see if he will keep improving

I wouldn't exactly put Plushenko in the category of those who left mistakes affect his programs. It's not like he bombs all the time LOL But I definitely wouldn't consider him one of the best in terms of recovering. I think the only time he did that well was in SLC after the fall. If you had missed him falling, you wouldn't be able to tell by the way he skated the rest of the program. He seems to be a little better now. I wondered how he would deal with skating last in Dortmund after so many terrific skates, including from Joubert who was second and was the European champion. Yes, he was probably nervous, but he skated well despite the fall (that couldn't affect him much anyway because it was right in the end of the program). I thought it was an improvement.

I think Plushenko's problem has more to do with skating AFTER his main rivals. Happened in Minneapolis in 1998, in Nice in 2000, in the Olympics, in Europeans this year... When he skated before Yagudin he always seemed to do better than when he skated after.

I was watching the 2004 tape of 4CC today. Yukina Ota had a fall on the second triple lutz of her LP, but she did a triple toe-double toe after that and finished the program strong. It will be hard to draw conclusions from one performance, but she may have the will power to not hold back after a mistake.