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Thread: Covering up/recovering from mistakes

  1. #16
    Go NJ Devils
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm
    joesitz: "I think only in Ice Dancing does a booboo lose points regardless of how well it is covered up."

    Not always. At Lalique this past season, Delshoes fell badly on a required element in the OD and still placed second in the OD, after the Bulgarians. And a fall didn't keep Dubreuil/Lauzon off the podium at Skate Canada.
    At Trophee Lalique Delobel and Schoenfelder were severely dinged in the Elements score for their fall on the final lift: per the rules, it was downgraded to Level 1 (from 2), and their GOE was reduced by 80% due to the -2's and -3's they received. They received a total of .32 for the lift. Since it was the last element of their program, by the CoP descriptions, the fall didn't have to affect their choreography, transitions, skating skills, or interpretation scores by much; however, the judges didn't take the full mandatory deduction for the fall from Performance/Execution. Had they done so, Delobel/Schoenfelder would still have been ahead of Dubreuil/Lauzon, whose base difficulty was less (even with the downgrade for the lift) and who were dinged on the Level midline step sequence. Delobel/Schoenfelder had had an excellent program until the fall, and they were given a major GOE (+2 avg) on the Level 2 midline step sequence that opened their program.

    At Skate Canada Dubreuil and Lauzon were also severely dinged in the Elements score for their fall in the footwork: they received an average GOE of -2.6, and a total of .9 for the element. (It was already a Level 1 sequence, so it couldn't be downgraded.) Same story as Del/Sch in the Performance/Execution scores: the fall didn't seem to affect the scores, even though there were still two elements to go and they lost the pace of their program with the fall. However, they were well ahead of Chait and Sakhnovsky at Skate Canada, mostly because their base difficulty was almost 5 points higher than the Israelis' and they gained a point more over their base with the scores on the other elements.

    In the technical area in dance, risk was rewarded more and falls were very costly for the element only. The tech scores for the other elements were not adversely affected by a mistake in a single element, which kept the mistake in context with the rest of the program, at least technically.

  2. #17
    cranky girl guinevere's Avatar
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    At the '02 Olys, both Sale/Pelletier (SP) and Bourne/Kraatz (FP) had obvious falls at the very end of their programs, and both incorporated them into the programs. I mean, I think just about anyone would know that the spills were NOT supposed to be there, but neither detracted from the program at all. As a dancer, I always appreciate skaters' abilities to cover up their falls

    I agree with those saying MK and Kurt Browning are among the best at shaking off mistakes in their programs. I would say Yags and Tara are excellent at letting go of a mistake in the SP and coming back in the LP.

    Along with those others have mentioned at letting mistakes take over their program, I would add Tim (if his jumps aren't there, his overall skating really goes out the window), and I would say this is an area where Plush has completely improved.

    guinevere

  3. #18
    Rooting for the Kerrs!
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    Quote Originally Posted by guinevere
    Along with those others have mentioned at letting mistakes take over their program, I would add Tim (if his jumps aren't there, his overall skating really goes out the window), and I would say this is an area where Plush has completely improved.
    I think so too. My first thought was of Plush, but thinking about it, he does actually seem to be able to hold himself together now quite well. Euros was a bit of a disaster, but it was clear that he was trying his hardest rather than giving up. Also, he looked a little nervous in his Worlds LP, but after that fall on the 3loop entrance (and those kinds of falls *hurt*), he actually got up smiling and seemed if anything to be more into it. Maybe that's just me, I dunno. He certainly didn't let that fall affect the rest of his programme though.

    Also, I think maybe Sandhu is improving - in his 04 Worlds LP, he fell on his first jump (the quad), but then came back with a strong 3axel-3toe (IIRC) and skated the rest of the performance very well. He didn't look like he was going to give up because of that one mistake.

  4. #19
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    I thought Sandhu definitely improved this season. His 4Cs LP peformance was an example and he showed it at Worlds too. Granted, he bombed in the jump departement in the Worlds SP, but it didn't affect his presentation that much, I thought. He still sold the program extremely well unlikely so many times in the past when he missed the jumps and would give up completely, just going through the motions. And the LP, despite the lack of quads, I thought he still skated pretty well. I'm looking forward to see if he will keep improving

    I wouldn't exactly put Plushenko in the category of those who left mistakes affect his programs. It's not like he bombs all the time LOL But I definitely wouldn't consider him one of the best in terms of recovering. I think the only time he did that well was in SLC after the fall. If you had missed him falling, you wouldn't be able to tell by the way he skated the rest of the program. He seems to be a little better now. I wondered how he would deal with skating last in Dortmund after so many terrific skates, including from Joubert who was second and was the European champion. Yes, he was probably nervous, but he skated well despite the fall (that couldn't affect him much anyway because it was right in the end of the program). I thought it was an improvement.

    I think Plushenko's problem has more to do with skating AFTER his main rivals. Happened in Minneapolis in 1998, in Nice in 2000, in the Olympics, in Europeans this year... When he skated before Yagudin he always seemed to do better than when he skated after.

  5. #20
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    I was watching the 2004 tape of 4CC today. Yukina Ota had a fall on the second triple lutz of her LP, but she did a triple toe-double toe after that and finished the program strong. It will be hard to draw conclusions from one performance, but she may have the will power to not hold back after a mistake.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIskatingfan
    I thought Sandhu definitely improved this season. His 4Cs LP peformance was an example and he showed it at Worlds too. Granted, he bombed in the jump departement in the Worlds SP, but it didn't affect his presentation that much, I thought. He still sold the program extremely well unlikely so many times in the past when he missed the jumps and would give up completely, just going through the motions. And the LP, despite the lack of quads, I thought he still skated pretty well. I'm looking forward to see if he will keep improving

    I wouldn't exactly put Plushenko in the category of those who left mistakes affect his programs. It's not like he bombs all the time LOL But I definitely wouldn't consider him one of the best in terms of recovering. I think the only time he did that well was in SLC after the fall. If you had missed him falling, you wouldn't be able to tell by the way he skated the rest of the program. He seems to be a little better now. I wondered how he would deal with skating last in Dortmund after so many terrific skates, including from Joubert who was second and was the European champion. Yes, he was probably nervous, but he skated well despite the fall (that couldn't affect him much anyway because it was right in the end of the program). I thought it was an improvement.

    I think Plushenko's problem has more to do with skating AFTER his main rivals. Happened in Minneapolis in 1998, in Nice in 2000, in the Olympics, in Europeans this year... When he skated before Yagudin he always seemed to do better than when he skated after.
    The only times I have seen him absolutely bomb was at 1)2000 worlds- he was just 17 and had not matured yet; he tried to improvise too much after missing the first quad, 2)2004 Euro- I have to give him benefit of doubt because he had been skating with a knee injury all season. I don't think it was necessarily because he skated after Joubert. At the 2004 worlds he skated after 5 skaters that skated great and still delivered a great program. I believe he has come a long way from the 2000 worlds when he was just 17.

  7. #22
    GOLDEN DREAMS RealtorGal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guinevere
    At the '02 Olys, both Sale/Pelletier (SP) and Bourne/Kraatz (FP) had obvious falls at the very end of their programs, and both incorporated them into the programs. I mean, I think just about anyone would know that the spills were NOT supposed to be there, but neither detracted from the program at all. As a dancer, I always appreciate skaters' abilities to cover up their falls
    When I think of B&K's Olympic performance in 2002, all I can remember is that ridiculous fall at the end. She kept trying to get him to stay down to make it look like part of the program, which only made it look more ridiculous. It most definitely DID detract from the overall program impression. I felt badly about that because it cost them the bronze, which ended up being won by a guy who brought the sport of "Skate & Trip" to a new level (Margaglio). :D

  8. #23
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    But I do agree about Sale and Pelletier's Oly short program. The theme was, the lady is teaching her clutzy and unwilling partner to Tango, so for him to fall at the end on purpose would have been really cool.

    Mathman

  9. #24
    Skating Freak Barbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    The only times I have seen him absolutely bomb was at 1)2000 worlds- he was just 17 and had not matured yet; he tried to improvise too much after missing the first quad, 2)2004 Euro- I have to give him benefit of doubt because he had been skating with a knee injury all season. I don't think it was necessarily because he skated after Joubert. At the 2004 worlds he skated after 5 skaters that skated great and still delivered a great program. I believe he has come a long way from the 2000 worlds when he was just 17.

    Add the 98 worlds, when he was 15, adorable as heck, and SOOOOO determined to get that quad that he fell three times in the program! He's come a long way baby!

    Kasey

  10. #25
    Figure Skating Is A Dangerous Sport Dee4707's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIskatingfan
    I would definitely include Alexei Yagudin, that was one of the things that made him such a fantastic competitor. Many times the program grew stronger and stronger and ind the end you completely forgot about the mistakes in the beginning! Sorry, having flashbacks of Europeans in Bratislava...
    One of the times when I saw Alexei fight back with everything he had was at the 2001 Worlds SP and then LP where he struggled during the whole program. He had this fierce look on his face that he was going to get through the program no matter what......and he did. Another person I see doing that is Sarah Hughes. She is a fighter.

    Dee

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