Gracie Gold's coaching/choreography

mrrice said:

Can you please post Gracie's Gershwin program.

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It's on the first page of the thread.

skylark said:

Watched both all through. What struck me was the minute or so in K&C with Alex; she really was a different person. It may be partly that Frank, expectations and fame changed her persona. OR it might be what many adolescent girls go through, a change in self-perception and need to be who others want to see. Also when she talks about making programs their best, it's all tech. Never mentions performance, interpretation, feelings.

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Totally different person in the K & C with Alex. Somehow Frank's "send off" from the boards of "Go do your job" just doesn't seem to resonate with Gracie. It just makes me crazy, because she has it all -- ok, maybe her knees are stiff. But still! I don't know, I guess I just like Alex for her.

Arriba627 said:

Totally different person in the K & C with Alex. Somehow Frank's "send off" from the boards of "Go do your job" just doesn't seem to resonate with Gracie. It just makes me crazy, because she has it all -- ok, maybe her knees are stiff. But still! I don't know, I guess I just like Alex for her.

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I've been thinking exactly this for a long time. It puzzles me that if an observer can see something, it shouldn't be so hard for the team. If Frank has a weakness as a coach, and every coach surely does, I think it may be that unvarying method or attitude. OTOH, listening to the whole interview, it struck me that Gracie doesn't understand Frank's subtlety. She seems to think he's been unobservant (such as with her doing the Rippon lutz), but I think he's asking her a question to make her come up with the answer that he wants her to think about. Alex's directness may have been more effective for her.

Tolstoj said:

I'm pretty convinced this is Frank/Lori's fault, and after rewatching TSL interviews, Alex was right on so many things about Gracie: they wanted to make Gracie a princess but she is not that kind of girl.

She liked her 2013 Gershwin's SP, and she made that piece her own. (but Frank hated so much)

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Can you or someone else shed some light on that "princess" thing? How does it work and which past skaters were those supposed princesses?

Ares said:

Can you or someone else shed some light on that "princess" thing? How does it work and which past skaters were those supposed princesses?

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Well, I'd say that Med would be considered a princess. Alissa Czisny was called a princess by the BESP guys.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgWWbAktR-w

skylark said:

I've been thinking exactly this for a long time. It puzzles me that if an observer can see something, it shouldn't be so hard for the team. If Frank has a weakness as a coach, and every coach surely does, I think it may be that unvarying method or attitude. OTOH, listening to the whole interview, it struck me that Gracie doesn't understand Frank's subtlety. She seems to think he's been unobservant (such as with her doing the Rippon lutz), but I think he's asking her a question to make her come up with the answer that he wants her to think about. Alex's directness may have been more effective for her.

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Sounds as if we have had some very similar thoughts! Just because Frank won a gold with one coaching style with no-nonsense, no-fun Evan Lysacek, that doesn't mean that approach will work with Gracie. One thing that concerns me a little bit about Alex is that Tomoki Hiwatashi (coached by Alex) just won the U.S Men's Jr. title, and now just a few weeks ago we heard that Tomoki has left Alex and is now working with Kori's team in CO. So I guess that makes me think that we never really know as much as we think we know. Is there some reason that skaters just don't feel like Alex is the one to take them to the next level. Or is it not even Alex but the training environment. (Ok, I know no one likes our weather -- but Detroit and the east coast are cold too! ) Felt a little bit bad for Alex when I heard that news.

Her unfulfilled potential is just killing me!

skylark said:

The thing that I find with Gracie is that she doesn't make the music her own. The closest I've seen her come is with her 2014 national & olympics programs, the Grieg, which Lori choreographed, and Sleeping Beauty, which Marina choreographed. I've seen so many posts blaming Gracie's problems on Lori's choreography, and by implication Frank's choices. I don't see that at all. She just isn't an expressive skater unless she's doing perfect jumps.

On the triple loop thread, I haven't watched every video but I noticed that with Carolina's Ave Maria and Secret Garden and with Ilia's Liebestraume, it's all about making the music their own.

This is part of why I uber Ashley. She pretty much makes every piece of music she skates to her own. So much emotional power.

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Agree. I do not have of course any professional insight but, whenever I watch Gracie on TV, I go to the kitchen to make my cap of tea... There is nothing in her skating, except her physical beauty, which would have make me to be interested to watch her programs to the end. There is an emotional coldness. Yes, I can see her undeniable talent but it is not enough to make someone to watch figure skating. She seems to be quite introverted personality, too. There are many talented pianists for example, but only few have a gut to be a concert pianists. It is not enough with a perfect technique, there has to be something else- ability to forget about oneself and an inner desire to give/perform. To my surprise, I have noticed, that Tatiana Tarasova ( and, I guess, she is an authority on this board) whenever she comments figure skating competitions, is not impressed with Gracie' skating either. On the other hand, Gracie deserves all the love and credit, because she works very hard. Yes, perhaps her first coach would have helped her to open some gates to overcome all her inner obstacles to perform, but, I guess, it was Gracie's choice to go to Frank Carol, and it certainly was the best for her at that point of time. I remember that there was a time that everyone blamed her first coach on this board.... Gracie is Gracie- unique and beautiful, and she has to know what she wants from deeply inside.

Ares said:

Can you or someone else shed some light on that "princess" thing? How does it work and which past skaters were those supposed princesses?

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Peggy Fleming was called an Ice Princess, as was Kristi Yamaguchi. I think the term refers to their on ice persona, which in both those cases was rather cool and maybe a tad bit reserved. But they both had plenty of competitive fire. Alyssa had the looks and persona, but Bezic said once she was too nice to be a "killer instinct" competitor.

skylark said:

I've been thinking exactly this for a long time. It puzzles me that if an observer can see something, it shouldn't be so hard for the team. If Frank has a weakness as a coach, and every coach surely does, I think it may be that unvarying method or attitude. OTOH, listening to the whole interview, it struck me that Gracie doesn't understand Frank's subtlety. She seems to think he's been unobservant (such as with her doing the Rippon lutz), but I think he's asking her a question to make her come up with the answer that he wants her to think about. Alex's directness may have been more effective for her.

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This touches on something that has concerned me about Frank and Gracie for a while now. Frank has an interview where he said that he tends to get sarcastic with his skaters when they are starting to annoy him/frustrated him. A lot of Gracie's "Frank is so cute" comments sound like they could be Frank being sarcastic due to getting annoyed with Gracie...but Gracie completely missing that he is getting upset that she is not doing as well as she could. More than once I have seen comments from her about Frank and wondered if she was misreading him.

This does not mean that Frank is a bad coach or Gracie a bad skater. But if a skater thinks her coach is being cute, when he is trying to tell her to shape up... there is a bit of a breakdown in communications going on I think. I think they like each other... but I am not sure they really *get* each other well enough to communicate as well as they need to.

Arriba627 said:

Sounds as if we have had some very similar thoughts! Just because Frank won a gold with one coaching style with no-nonsense, no-fun Evan Lysacek, that doesn't mean that approach will work with Gracie. One thing that concerns me a little bit about Alex is that Tomoki Hiwatashi (coached by Alex) just won the U.S Men's Jr. title, and now just a few weeks ago we heard that Tomoki has left Alex and is now working with Kori's team in CO. So I guess that makes me think that we never really know as much as we think we know. Is there some reason that skaters just don't feel like Alex is the one to take them to the next level. Or is it not even Alex but the training environment. (Ok, I know no one likes our weather -- but Detroit and the east coast are cold too! ) Felt a little bit bad for Alex when I heard that news.

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Yes, it did work with Evan. I listened to part 2 of TSL interview with Frank a few weeks ago. When they asked what was so special about Evan, he said it was his passion, that he had that desire and fire to get the performance he wanted. I sort of wished he'd said that during 2010; I got tired of everyone attributing Evan's success to hard work only. It had to be more than that; and his love for performing came out in his skating too.

Toward the end they asked him about Mirai. He was very gracious and said wonderful things about her talent and what she has going for her. He's always attributed their parting to the travel distance to the rink, which is true enough. But he also said she needed to decide if she wanted it enough to be on time.

Now that I've "gotten to know" Alex a little through that interview and like him, I feel bad and wonder too. And you're right, there's lots we don't know.

withwings said:

Agree. I do not have of course any professional insight but, whenever I watch Gracie on TV, I go to the kitchen to make my cap of tea... There is nothing in her skating, except her physical beauty, which would have make me to be interested to watch her programs to the end. There is an emotional coldness. Yes, I can see her undeniable talent but it is not enough to make someone to watch figure skating. She seems to be quite introverted personality, too. There are many talented pianists for example, but only few have a gut to be a concert pianists. It is not enough with a perfect technique, there has to be something else- ability to forget about oneself and an inner desire to give/perform.

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That's a very good comparison, and you've stated it so beautifully. I wonder if that last bit can be learned, like for instance Ashley learned to rely a little on help other people could give her and create a better training and competition environment for herself that way. Rather than being so independent. (I just re-watched her Oct. 2015 interview).

I tend to think that inner desire to give something to the audience has to already be there, but it would be interesting to hear if any previous or present skaters have found ways to develop it. Or other sorts of performers, such as a pianist.

skylark said:

Now that I've "gotten to know" Alex a little through that interview and like him, I feel bad and wonder too. And you're right, there's lots we don't know.

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Actually Alex's rink (Glacier Ice Arena) is about 20 miles from where I live. From what I understand, it has an excellent reputation. Shoma was just here for 2-3 weeks working with Alex on his jumps and some other training. One of the Brit broadcasters (Chris) is the director of figure skating there. Possibly in both Tomoki's and Gracie's cases, they were now "top dog" and really needed other skaters to push them. But I'm not so sure that's what Gracie's environment is now anyway! :curse: Grrrr! Can't tell you how many hours my skating nerd friend and I have spent discussing this very topic!

StitchMonkey said:

This touches on something that has concerned me about Frank and Gracie for a while now. Frank has an interview where he said that he tends to get sarcastic with his skaters when they are starting to annoy him/frustrated him. A lot of Gracie's "Frank is so cute" comments sound like they could be Frank being sarcastic due to getting annoyed with Gracie...but Gracie completely missing that he is getting upset that she is not doing as well as she could. More than once I have seen comments from her about Frank and wondered if she was misreading him.

This does not mean that Frank is a bad coach or Gracie a bad skater. But if a skater thinks her coach is being cute, when he is trying to tell her to shape up... there is a bit of a breakdown in communications going on I think. I think they like each other... but I am not sure they really *get* each other well enough to communicate as well as they need to.

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There is definitely a disconnect there somewhere!

StitchMonkey said:

This does not mean that Frank is a bad coach or Gracie a bad skater. But if a skater thinks her coach is being cute, when he is trying to tell her to shape up... there is a bit of a breakdown in communications going on I think. I think they like each other... but I am not sure they really *get* each other well enough to communicate as well as they need to.

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And their "honeymoon year" was such a whirlwind, and everything went so well!

skylark said:

And their "honeymoon year" was such a whirlwind, and everything went so well!

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That is actually a pretty good comparison. Early on, the newness and excitement can carry a relationships... but when things get real, you have to be able to communicate and be compatible as humans.

I think it may have been that the fresh start worked early on, and worked well enough that they never really thought about how well they fit long term.

I really liked her Firebird. I was with her just before she performed it one time and she really took the performance to heart. And I really enjoyed it. And the crowd loved it. I also loved her Gershwin program. It was scrapped early in the season so she never had a chance to flesh it out if I remember correctly.

She is one of of the few skaters who isn't very tall but looks tall on the ice.

I'd like to see more Gracie with Misha Ge. He seems to give her a fun relaxed time on the ice. I can't wait to see Bang Bang as her gala program.

I have no real opinion on Gracie, as I don't follow the ladies enough to know (Other than that I love that she loves Jason)

But on the topic of Frank, I posted this vid in another thread, but I think it's relevant here. 1990 Worlds with Frank coaching the completely un-coachable (and wildly talented) Christopher Bowman. Watch Frank at the beginning ... I can't imagine that's not complete and total sarcasm. And how fed up and direct he is with Christopher in the KnC (even though Christopher had just with this skate won bronze).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q3LST_EkA0

If you care to watch a men's skate, the rest is entertaining too, from Christopher's waking up after falling out of his 3A, playing the crowd, the judges, and the ref, and throwing in an unplanned jump in the last 20 seconds. But I offer it for Frank...

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I don't see Gracie as incapable of being musical or expressive (I've seen it in exhibitions), but competition nerves definitely inhibit her.

Gracie is a Carroll student, so there's no doubt Lori works very, very hard on choreographing her programs and working with her personally to help her *get* them. I definitely think they were successful last year, with both the SP and LP. And I think the SP will be successful this year...with a fun, sexy, assassin theme to it. I do suspect Gracie has a trickier time with classical music, but Firebird worked. Daphnis et Chloe might too, but it really depends on what the program is like. I hope Lori puts as much work into it as she obviously did with Firebird, which was a gorgeously choreographed program, even if we agree to disagree on whether or not Gracie gave a good performance of it.

We never see Gracie 100% just lose it out there (in a good way) to connect with her music and seem entirely uninhibited and free and enjoying the performance, but I admire her commitment to executing complex choreography flawlessly, even when the performance isn't going well, and selling it with her body movements even if she isn't with her face.

I don't hold choreography and music choices responsible for Gracie's mistakes. I hold Frank partially responsible, if only because it's his job to help the athlete mentally and he hasn't found a solution. But sometimes there's something inside a person that just holds them back. How responsible was Yuka Sato for Jeremy Abbot's headcase problems? IMO, it's not a case of the coach doing the WRONG thing to fix a skater's mentality, but just an inability to find that needle in a haystack RIGHT thing that will fix it.

Being so close to retirement, I doubt Frank has the motivation and ambition and adaptability of a younger coach to try and find a solution. Rafael Arutunyan, OTOH, isn't a young man but definitely seems to have the drive to help a skater find what makes them get out there and own a performance. He's not perfect, but he's the only US coach who got not one, but TWO of his skaters to put down 2 clean performances at Worlds.

skylark said:

Also when she talks about making programs their best, it's all tech. Never mentions performance, interpretation, feelings.

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Well she does mention performance but for her that seems to just mean big smiles and such. She needs to work more on moving from her core, having fluidity in her limbs, and the art of performance. Her midsection almost always remains rigid and many of the movements of her arms/legs/feet are very straight, not three-dimensional. She doesn't seem to perform out of a need to express complex ideas and emotion. Maybe she does need a "more relatable" coach but it's hard to say. She had pretty ideal programs last year, the ideal scenario of the World Championships in USA, and Frank's experience and political workings behind her. Nerves are hard to conquer for most people.

el henry said:

I have no real opinion on Gracie, as I don't follow the ladies enough to know (Other than that I love that she loves Jason)

But on the topic of Frank, I posted this vid in another thread, but I think it's relevant here. 1990 Worlds with Frank coaching the completely un-coachable (and wildly talented) Christopher Bowman. Watch Frank at the beginning ... I can't imagine that's not complete and total sarcasm. And how fed up and direct he is with Christopher in the KnC (even though Christopher had just with this skate won bronze).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q3LST_EkA0

If you care to watch a men's skate, the rest is entertaining too, from Christopher's waking up after falling out of his 3A, playing the crowd, the judges, and the ref, and throwing in an unplanned jump in the last 20 seconds. But I offer it for Frank...

topic:

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Oh, my Bowman the Showman, RIP. Gracie would be a piece of cake next to coaching this dude. I guess Frank has seen it all over the years. Also trying to remember the last time I saw someone skate to Tico Tico. Thx for posting.