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Thread: Article on 2004 Campbell's: Prize money, Kwan and Cohen confirmed

  1. #16
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar
    I'm not sure how I feel about the USFSA and its contracts with the skaters. Is the USFSA a pimp or an organization concerned about the welfare of its athletes? The main objective of the USFSA is to put skaters on the podium in international competition (according to its website). I think it's rather counterproductive to force your best skater (and best shot at a world medal/world medalist) to skate in events when he is injured.
    Actually I think that sports organizations are expected to do a little pimping. That is, besides winning medals in international competitions I think they do try to promote the sport at all levels, try to get skating events on TV, try to make money for people in the sport, try to get publicity for skating and skaters, etc. Money talks.

    Mathman

  2. #17
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    I understand about the USFSA wanting to publicize its events, but are they cutting off their nose to spite its face in forcing injured skaters to compete in these events? If a skater can't perform to his/her level due to injury, I would think there is a double whammy in that not only could the skater further injure himself, but the skater will also deliver a crappy performance. Who likes attending an event where there are lots of bad performances? A bad performance really sucks the sails out of those events (esp with only 6 skaters). Yes Tim is a name, however there are other skaters the USFSA can put in a competition to promote new faces. I hope Tim can regain his form, but what if he's never the same? Of all the US men, Tim is the only guy who can compete with the Russians technically. Johnny is not there yet (if he ever gets there). Tim's injury (projecting forward here) might have cost the US an Olympic medal in 2006 and maybe even a berth if he can't deliver in 2005 (and the other two guys can't either). I'm not playing a what if game nor am I looking to debate on the merits of the US team. I'm just saying that forcing an athlete to compete when injured can affect other , more important interests.

    I feel the same way about Mishin having his pupils compete 3 Grand Prix events and then the Final. Skaters get worn out with all those competitions.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar
    Tim Goebel made a few comments to Spotlight on Skating concerning his injury and said that he should have sat out the fall Grand Prix season.

    His quote:
    "It wasn't just me wanting to do the events. Let's just leave it at that. I had obligations and I tried to fulfill them as best I could. Unfortunately, as a result of that I missed the last half of the season."

    I'm not sure how I feel about the USFSA and its contracts with the skaters. Is the USFSA a pimp or an organization concerned about the welfare of its athletes? The main objective of the USFSA is to put skaters on the podium in international competition (according to its website). I think it's rather counterproductive to force your best skater (and best shot at a world medal/world medalist) to skate in events when he is injured. I think that if Tim took time off to get his situation organized, he definitely would have medalled at worlds (at least a bronze).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog
    But she was obviously sick, and her poor performance showed it. IMO I think it might have been better for her to just skip it rather than skate sub-par like that. I think the coach was right here.
    Actually, I believe Sasha stated she was sick a few weeks before the cheesefest, not during it. Tarasova said it was right after TL, not during the cheesefest.
    Many skaters have competed while being ill. I guess they deserve major respect when they skate well. :D

  5. #20
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    I think that there is a huge leap of assumption from "I had obligations" to "the USFSA forces it's skaters to skate injured". IIRC Tim had boot problems and it wasn't until after nats that the Doctor decided that the boot problems had caused the misalignment. What's all this about an injury? Also, let's not puts words in his mouth. His very vague statement could mean anything from "My parents always taught me to honor my comitments" to "I can't say anymore, spies are everywhere.".

    And what's all this nonsense about predictions being hopeful obserations? Like duh. Are you expecting only people with the "gift" of intuition to post? No one ever said that predictions had to have a 90% accuracy rate or your money back. And I love the "I'm gonna wait until the season starts and we see them skate" line people always use. Imagine if political pundants said things like "I'm gonna wait until after the conventions to predict who's gonna win the election" No news program would carry them. Predictions are fun. Go with the flow, you just might enjoy yourself.

  6. #21
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog
    Isn't that always the case? You really can't predict these comps. Yes, I kind of agree but I think it adds "fun" to the "off-season debate".
    I agree, it does add fun but it does make predictions look silly and the poster who made them. Why not just pick a skater and add to the prediction something like He/She has looked good in practice during the summer so a prediction may have some validity. Otherwise just list your favorite which we all know who that is.

    BTW - Has anything new happened with this upcoming Cheesefest? I'm more interested in seeing the skate rather than making predictions. I'd like to know who else is involved. I am not anxious to see MK or SC as I am Irina. I hope she got an invitation. Also I'm interested in seeing if Johnny is keeping up with his past excellent season. Will Tim be back? Who will be the international Men involved? So much more to look forward to and not just the MK/SC thing.

    Joe

  7. #22
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    BTW - Has anything new happened with this upcoming Cheesefest? I'm more interested in seeing the skate rather than making predictions. I'd like to know who else is involved. I am not anxious to see MK or SC as I am Irina. I hope she got an invitation. Also I'm interested in seeing if Johnny is keeping up with his past excellent season. Will Tim be back? Who will be the international Men involved? So much more to look forward to and not just the MK/SC thing.
    Nope, so far it's only MK and SC. http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/4876698.html Quote:" The remaining skaters will be announced later."

  8. #23
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    I agree, it does add fun but it does make predictions look silly and the poster who made them. Why not just pick a skater and add to the prediction something like He/She has looked good in practice during the summer so a prediction may have some validity. Otherwise just list your favorite which we all know who that is.
    Just out of curiosity what brought this sudden conviction on? I didn't see a single prediction in this entire thread.

  9. #24
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthes ghost
    Imagine if political pundants said things like "I'm gonna wait until after the conventions to predict who's gonna win the election" No news program would carry them.
    Bliss.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthes ghost
    Just out of curiosity what brought this sudden conviction on? I didn't see a single prediction in this entire thread.
    Trust me, as soon as the lineup is complete there will be a thread from someone saying: I can't wait, what is your prediction? And yes, Bliss.
    Joe

  11. #26
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    Re. predictions

    I really don't see what's wrong with predicting. I personally tend not to, but I find nothing wrong with it. Don't commentators always try to predict the winner of a basketball or football game? What about the endless speculation about the Super Bowl or the NBA Finals or the World Series? Is that wrong too? I think it's part of the fun of watching the game or the series; watching experts try to predict the winner based on past games or competitions, and maybe even coming to your own conclusion(s). Of course, once the game/series actually starts, all the predictions usually go out the window (2004 NBA Finals anyone?) but I think, as a sports fan, that's part of the fun.

    To relate this to skating competitions, I realize that there are many competitors (rather than two teams playing each other) and therefore would be harder to predict accurately. But what if we banned all predictions/speculations/rumours? It would make for a pretty boring (IMO) off-season at these forums. Even if the competition goes totally in the opposite direction of the predictions (i.e. ladies' 2004 worlds) it was fun reading the predictions, and helps build excitement or get you prepared for the game.

    Just my 2 cents...and just my opinion.

  12. #27
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    Add me to the group who doesn't see what's wrong with predictions. Doesn't make any sense. No predictions? Predictions are silly? LOL I doubt any of us here are magicians who can read the future and there's a high probability that our guesses are wrong, but I think that's a given, that's why it's called "prediction" LOL If we base ourselves on historical results, have some knowledge about someone's skating, how they are doing before a major competition and how good or bad they are skating... I think we can make a guess as to how good or bad they will skate. So what if we are wrong? Many times not even the skaters themselves know why things don't go the way they predicted!

    Not sure what triggered this comment of predictions vs hopes, but I think most people who honestly reply to the question of "who do you predict will win..." can perfectly make a distinction between a prediction and what their hope for the final result is. Say, Kevin VDP may be my fave skater, but that doesn't mean I will automatically predict that he will be the next Worlds champion. I doubt anyone could have predicted that Shizuka Arakawa would be our current ladies champion, but that's not surprising. Kwan was still the reigning World Champion and National Champion, Sasha Cohen was having her best season up to date. Who would guess that an inconsistent skater who had never finished top 5 would win? Just an example.

  13. #28
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I understand the pro-predictioners. There is nothing wrong with it. I know most of the posters on this Board and they will predict their favorites and without any up to date information. I'm not saying everyone. I am saying most of them. When I see a poster's name, I know the prediction before I open the thread. In fact, any Member can do the same thing.. I'm not psychic. In most cases it will be their favorite skater(s). Am I absolutely wrong? If I am correct, then we are voting for the most popular skater on GS and not necessarily the gold medal winner in the cheesefest.

    Yes, there are some serious skating fans who rise above this and will predict based on last season's skate and seeing a certain improvement from the year before, and more expectation this year, If an explanation goes with the prediction, it becomes more interesting.

    And there are many more posters, like me, who just want to see if there is anything new coming from the usual suspects to use it and the GPs, the Nats, so that they can make a realistic Worlds prediction provided all the skaters have a good night.

    So for the cheesfest, it isn't a real prediction as sportcasters, and sportswriters do. They are aware of what is going on during the off season as well as the most recent season They may not agree, but it is not because their predictions are based on the indidivual or team. College Football is a good example of pedictions.before the season starts.

    I suppose it is fun to list your favorite skater as the winner of the cheesfest. Certainly there is nothing wrong with that. It's GREAT FUN TO PREDICT YOUR FAVORITE. Don't listen to me.

    jOE .

  14. #29
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    RISkater - Couldn't agree with you more. Your post is right on with serious skating fans who take a serious interest in predicting.
    Your example of Shizuka just shows how predictions can go wrong. as far as the gold medal is concerened. And it was the Worlds after we saw everyone skate in GPs and some Nats. seeing all that and waiting for skaters to perform their best makes the prediction is easier and it]s not just one's favorite.

    I think the world's prediction for 2004 were for Sasha, Michelle and Fumie in no particuar order.

    cheers - Joe

  15. #30
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    Then in that case, there should be a distinction between a "prediction" and a "hope". As far as I know, when I read prediction threads many posters list their predictions (based on THEIR thoughts) and their dream podiums (how they WANT the competition to turn out). Others simply make a list of skaters with placement numbers next to them. I guess this is what the anti-prediction people are talking about?

    I know most of the posters on this Board and they will predict their favorites and without any up to date information. I'm not saying everyone. I am saying most of them. When I see a poster's name, I know the prediction before I open the thread. In fact, any Member can do the same thing.. I'm not psychic. In most cases it will be their favorite skater(s). Am I absolutely wrong? If I am correct, then we are voting for the most popular skater on GS and not necessarily the gold medal winner in the cheesefest.
    If I understand you correctly, I guess you are saying that people should only post "predictions" if they can be perfectly objective in their view and offer a detailed explanation of why they are making that prediction? And as for predictions going wrong, people shouldn't fear such a thing happening, otherwise we'd better ban predicting altogether...

    ETA:
    I think the world's prediction for 2004 were for Sasha, Michelle and Fumie in no particuar order.
    I think they might have been, and as a matter of fact that prediction would have been mostly correct...it was only Fumie that wasn't on the podium. Sasha and Michelle were on it, were they not?
    Last edited by R.D.; 07-16-2004 at 07:26 PM.

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